UK woman convicted of abortion

[Veterinari]

Full story here www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-given-suspended-sentence-for-having-abortion-in-the-uk-a6968676.html

Very sad. Is there a will in NI to update legislation on this issue? As it stands everyone loses

Gone I don't have a low opinion of Christianity, just the type of Christianity that tries to bully people into conforming with their narrow view. And in N Ireland that can be a very narrow view indeed.

If I had £1 for every time I had heard someone say 'of course you're not really a Christian if you believe in equality for women/drink alcohol/wear trousers/are a Catholic/wear a bikini/work outside the home/don't go to church twice on Sunday/listen to non Christian music/watch TV' etc etc etc I would be very rich indeed.

Gosh treacle I think you are going to the wrong church.

That's not my church I'm talking about. That is people in general who I have known over the years. Plenty of them. I'm astounded that anyone in N Ireland could be oblivious to this particular brand of Christianity.

Unite in NI has come out as pro choice (great news) but warn that women may be questioned if they have a miscarriage about taking abortion pill.

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/13/northern-ireland-women-miscarry-abortion-questioning-unite

Which means surely that giving my baby any sort of lifesaving treatment is 'denying them a natural lifespan' so much as taking the decision to abort to spare them or me any suffering.

This is such an important and often overlooked point. I don't think there can be a parent alive who wouldn't want to give their child every chance possible to live, (even amongst those who talk about "playing God" and other such drivel). No doubt, though, an anti-abortionist would come out with some weasel words to explain why denying someone their natural lifespan doesn't apply to life-saving treatment, only abortion.

gone I'm not convinced you actually live in NI if you don't think churches focus on hell; have you never read the lampposts, apart from anything else?

English DH was on his first trip out of Belfast. "Did that one say 'Booze - the devil's vomit'?" ... and all the rest.

What's on the lamp posts, boulevard?

On the lamposts, and on trees in country areas you'll quite often get little signs saying 'eternity where?' and 'for the wages of sin is death' and things like that. Or 'behold, now is the accepted time'. That sort of thing.

Boulevard don't forget the four Ds. Drink, the Devil, Drugs and Debauchery.

There's a lot of the end being nigh. As a child I never thought I'd get to be an adult because I'd heard so many times that the end was nigh. I have relatives who are adamant that they will never actually die because the Lord will be coming for us all within the next few months. Although older relatives tell me they've been saying the same thing for the past 60 years...

DH says the baptists and the evangelicals compete over who can be more hellfire and brimstone with their posters and banners
It's all 'the end is neigh, prepare to meet thy maker' stuff around ILs way, varying from a4 poster to billboard on the side of buildings
Presumably it is a nice little earner for printers...

treacle you don't happen to be from the North Antrim coast do you? There's an 'eternity, where?' tree here. I do a double take every time I see it.

Oh and here was me thinking it was unique .

I don't actually understand what it means. I have never understood what it means. It makes no sense.

I'd love to see a Bert and Ernie poster. Possibly with something suitably biblical or hellfireish underneath it.

Whenever anyone talks about the end being nigh it reminds me of this brilliant Peter Cook sketch:

treacle You are wrong to assume that all pro-lifers are short sighted, loveless hypocrites, frightened of judgement and with a Christianity inferior to your own.

I'm not aware of any denomination in NI that accepts abortion so it may be you vs virtually all Christians on this issue-are you blazing a trail?

gone you are being very sneery. I never said all pro lifers were loveless hypocrites. I said many are. And I stand by that.

Mainstream N Ireland religion sometimes views women as almost sub human. I've sat through sermons that have left me incandescent with rage. Eg women should not answer back to their husbands even if, for example, he is going to blow all the family money on a stupid investment and leave you penniless. If your husband treats you badly, even violently, then that is God's choice for you, and you must accept it. You should always submit to your husband sexually - no such thing as consent within marriage. And rape victims bring it on themselves and the real crime is against their father. These are all views that I have heard in mainstream N Ireland churches within the past couple of years.

I think that some people do try and support women who are considering an abortion so that they might feel that they have an alternative choice.
I think the Methodist church may do that.
Some people promoting "Choice" on this thread seem to assume that abortion is the answer - whereas in fact it is so often a result of desperation and pressure and women feeling they have NO choice.
Babies and mothers deserve better support from the taxpayer (I for one would pay more tax for that - wouldn't most people?) - and should never be made to feel that ending a life is the only solution to the mother's circumstances.

There are churches in my area who provide very good, practical support for people. And I fully acknowledge that.

Not my intention to be sneery but it's strange to find a church goer so full of dislike for the church and apparent superiority. Most people don't persist with something they're so willing to criticise. There is an absence of any balancing perspective in your posts or acknowledgment that many Christians in Ulster are not anything like as dreadful as you describe-but would still disagree with abortion.

Which would suggest to me at least that while many pro lifers may be as satisfyingly detestable as you describe, others, inconveniently, don't have the hypocritical lovelessness that would invalidate their stance on abortion. What if it really is a conscience issue? Where does that leave you in terms of your attitude to other Christians and your position on this issue? And the teaching of the church specifically on this issue?

It sounds like you are picking and choosing a bit, and using the shortcomings of the church to write off some of their beliefs. But part of the church's function in the world is to highlight things that are wrong.

I get as annoyed as you do when they are clearly in the wrong themselves, but don't think we can use that as an excuse to cherrypick on such a major issue-not when so many Christians hold an opposing position in conscience grounds, many of whom you must respect or there would be absolutely no justification for your faith at all.

Earlier in the thread you said something about having no time for Christan beliefs that negatively evaluated the actions of others. While I agree that our role to support and love is equally, if not more, important, surely the church is also there to guide and provide a moral framework? And surely there is huge emphasis in biblical teaching about how wrong it is to end a life and our responsibility to protect the weak?

I understand the other view and sympathise, but cannot imagine a way in which biblical teaching could be interpreted to support ending the life of a baby. Especially at, say, 20 weeks. Or at any stage in the downs scenario. The Bible has a great deal to say about society's responsibility towards children and women who are without support -it was one of the defining characteristics by which societies were evaluated and sometimes condemned. But it doesn't seem to mention this other right at all, (of bodily autonomy), let alone present it as trumping anything else. Though one could argue that the many passages against oppression could certainly be read as a protection of individual freedoms I suppose...