It seems someone in Germany has woken up and smelled the coffee

[ProfessorPreciseaBug]

This from Reuters..

www.spiegel.de/international/europe/following-the-path-of-the-paris-terror-weapons-a-1083461.html#ref=nl-international

Germany is proposing to demand that refugees integrate into German life or loose rights of residency.. It appears to include learning Grman and not treating women as second class...If only some of our politicians would do likewise.

It's not too much to ask someone to learn the basic rules of engagement. If I went to live abroad I would make sure that I wasn't going to make a complete arse of myself or get arrested. I know if I went shopping in Saudi in a bikini I would get arrested and possibly deported. If I grabbed a business card in Japan and stuck it straight in my back pocket without looking at it, I would cause offence. Why would I?

I suppose there is this whole 'Western women are slags' attitude and this needs to be addressed. Why is there such disrespect and distain for a society that has opened its doors?

AgainsttheGlock it's not really an either or question is it?

Widow - I'm afraid I just can't condone the mass rape of women as collateral damage to support the "no borders" cause. I'm a feminist so I disagree with mass rape and making excuses for rape.

mavis Quite. I lived abroad half my life and followed local customs - although in no country (including my own) has my behaviour been seen as abhorrent or criminal. The only faux pas I can recall having made is not tucking my feet under me when a Thai lady brought my lunch on the beach. I understand that my actions may have made her feel uncomfortable, but I truly believe it was a far cry from rape.

If the Far Right is active then it can only be in reaction to the arrival of a large number of people, most of them hostile to the West.
I agree but think it is also related to
Unfortunately, whenever these issues are discussed there is a small but persistent group of people who are apologists and minimisers for the actions of the perpetrators.

If the police, mainstream politicians, media and even people on social media refuse to acknowledge the extent of the problems and minimise and turn a blind eye - who can 'normal' people to turn to?
Normal people (like the old lady in clip) who are facing and living with these things day in day out. It leaves them nowhere else to turn but to the one group who will listen and talk about it - the Far Right.
That woman has a right to talk about her life experience - if she was negative it is because that is what she is seeing, what she is living with - or do you think she is making it up for political gain? If it is just her perception and not the reality it can be challenged with an opposing view from someone else living in her area - as they must also exist if her perception is incorrect. It cannot be dismissed by someone living in an Ivory tower. She should not be silenced, she deserves to heard.

And those boys were rude and perhaps if they had spoken more coherently, the interviewer would have also asked for their opinion.

Are you suggesting they're not failed by law that is not sufficient to bring prosecution against a lot of types of sexual assault?
I agree the laws were insufficient. But I don't believe for one second they would have stopped those assaults on NYE.
(I am pleased to see you Widow acknowledging they took place).

One reason they are so terrifying is that no matter how good the law is how can the victim give firm enough evidence to convict their assailants.
How can they say who did what in a chaotic situation surrounded by several men all touching them all over their bodies...how can they say with certainty it was Man A who torn my underwear off, Man B digitally raped me, Man C attempted to digitally rape me, Man D grabbed my breasts, Man E ....etc? (Honestly in a situation like that I think I would close my eyes - to try and block it out)

When is it just the victim's word against the assailants?
You could look at DNA evidence I guess but it would be multiple trace amounts - still hard to pin down who did what.
And as the mass immigration was so uncontrolled and people using fake IDs, 'losing' ID- how can the police even find the assailants? Know who they really are? ...and even if they can - the assailants can just move...to another country...
Firming up the law on sexual assault is the only positive thing to come out of NYE, but it is not enough to stop these kinds of assaults...in fact I'm not entirely sure how you can now....unless you detain everyone until they are registered - but then you couldn't do that overnight and they would just keep moving to the next place. Similar to what has happened in the Calais jungle clearance.

Glock as a feminist you should be aware that rape is a male violence, not just an immigrant violence problem.

If the Far Right is active then it can only be in reaction to the arrival of a large number of people, most of them hostile to the West

I don't think that's the only or even the main reason actually; I think the far right tends to prosper in difficult economic times first and foremost. Immigration is the topic they latch on as an easy fix-all solution, and it's certainly a popular platform, but it's not the root cause of their rise I don't think. If the economy was booming and people's standard of living was increasing, I highly doubt the far right would be nearly as successful as it is now all over Europe.

Chalala If you bring in masses of people into a country you need more resources - they need housing, feeding, policing, medical care etc etc which all costs. So it is linked.
These immigrants are not currently in a position to contribute to society -they are a drain on resources. (And I am not saying that will always be the case.)
If people are struggling anyway because the economy is bad and money is tight they are going to struggle even more after mass immigration. And (as in all these things) the people at the bottom - the poorest in society, the ones with the least will be ones that suffer most.
If everyone had a fantastic standard of living immigration would be less of an issue - a bit like why the loveies like Jude Law are keen on taking more immigrants - because it doesn't effect them at all (except they maybe can get even cheaper help around the house etc as there will be more competition for low paid work).

That argument reminds me of people who say things like refugee housing doesn't come out of council housing stock so it doesn't effect people already living here. Except, of course, it does because there are only so many houses unless you find the money to build more and somewhere to build them if the refugees are put into low cost housing that can not now be used by a council if they wanted/needed to...
Also that there is a separate pot of money to look after refugees....but it all comes out of the government budget and if money is spent there then it isn't available to be spent on anything else. (Unless of course you believe in the Magic Money tree...)
Taking in refugees in large numbers costs every single one of us one way or another - 'you' have to decide if that is a price that needs to be paid. And actually it isn't just whether 'you' think it is a price worth paying - it is whether the poorest can afford to pay too...and if they can't - how 'you' can then bear their burden too.

Widow - I really appreciate that you'd like to debate, but I just can't have a sensible discussion with a rape apologist. Good luck with your No borders cause. :)

unlucky83 I don't think what we're saying is entirely incompatible, but I would contend that the main reason people's standards of living aren't great (and therefore the reason they're unhappy and turning to far right parties) is the economic crisis that started a decade ago. Immigration may well make things worse for the average person, it may not - that's debatable, but even if it does make things worse it's still not the main problem (in my opinion). What is really clear though, is that immigration is giving far-right parties a convenient scapegoat to attract votes by promising a miracle solution to all our other problems.

In the UK we have prisons which specifically hold sex offenders and/or they're segregated from the general prison population due to "reprisals" aka getting your head kicked in by men whom abhor rape/paedophilia. E.g., in Scotland, should you tell your friend that your son is incarcerated at Peterhead... expect a sharp intake of breath and for her daughter to stop sending pen letters.

Why on earth would the Germans IMPORT sex pests, perverts & paedophiles en masse? Men for whom predatory sexual behaviour is their norm.

Chalala, I think you're right about the far right and economic circumstances.

Widow, you are absolutely not a rape apologist.

The far right are definitely the biggest threat in Europe today - I mean, just look at the hundreds of innocent people they've murdered and maimed in France and Belgium in the last few months.

Against all expectation, the Guardian has published a half-decent article by one the naive fools who swallowed the virtue-signalling Willkommenskultur wholesale but acknowledges it is now dead: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/01/germany-refugee-crisis-invited-into-my-home-welcoming-spirit-divided

Some choice quotes:

"Germans embraced their role as moral leaders of the western world. Collective narcissism may have played a role too. ...The refugees made us feel good about ourselves."

"Were we naive? Perhaps. Most of the refugees who stayed at our home were men in their 20s. They didn’t talk much. Some never even said “thank you”. One seemed to feel genuinely sorry for us because we have three daughters and no sons. Another asked, apropos of nothing, whether my wife was “a Jewish girl”."

"Many economists who were initially in favour of Merkel’s policy have changed their minds. They say that, even in the medium term, the costs will outweigh the benefits. And the experiences of companies that hired refugees as trainees have been disheartening. Most people they took on lack even the basics of a high-school education."

" Last month the head of the migration office admitted that up to 400,000 people had not applied for asylum. Which means we have no idea who they are or where they are from. It wasn’t supposed to happen like that."

"The mood started to shift in late 2015; and when hundreds of women were assaulted on New Year’s Eve in Cologne, it turned ugly."

"Unfortunately, the Gutmenschen have been just as intolerant, denouncing anyone who opposes an open-border policy as racist and worse. Nazi slurs used to be weapons of last resort in Germany’s political rhetoric. But it’s become common to compare the AfD’s conservative base to the millions of Germans who supported Hitler in 1933."

"The nature of political debate has changed, writer Peter Schneider said recently. “When I argue that refugees are welcome but not an unlimited number of them, my opponent will respond by saying that I sound like the AfD and that I’m xenophobic and probably a racist.”"

So much good stuff for the open-borders crowd on here to learn from!

I think it's a bit more complicated with the far right and the economic thing, it's only part of the equation and it's by no means certain that people as a whole will turn to them. There is a level of revulsion for them and an understanding of what they at heart stand for that precludes many people falling for their rhetoric. They have got more sophisticated in their use of the media etc, but so have many extremist groups - the Islamist ones included. I've seen sophisticated use of 'marketing' including use of social media/design on both sides. It's no longer a clear cut argument of purely economics with any of this.

Also the mass rape modus operandi, it was more the execution of the crime than the actuality of it (being a male issue) that was the kind of new thing (in modern times). I was searching in my mind for a comparable crime in Western Europe in modern times and there hasn't really been one outside of a time of war. It brought to mind reading accounts of after the Siege of Badajos when there were mass rapes. Yes rape is a whole male gender issue but the execution or MO in this case was unique and hadn't really been seen outside of the ME where there are similar accounts. It's how it is tackled now that is the issue as a PP said it's difficult to know how to even go about that given the circumstances.

OneWingWonder even if you're right and the far right is not the most dangerous threat to Europe today, it's not a reason not to discuss it. It's still dangerous enough to merit attention, in my opinion.

I think the far right certainly warrants attention, I just find it bizarre that when you have several people coming at you with a gun, its only the person who hold far right views which troubles SOME posters. ODD. They all worry me.

(and therefore the reason they're unhappy and turning to far right parties) is the economic crisis that started a decade ago. Immigration may well make things worse for the average person, it may not - that's debatable

Has Germany been as hard hit as other EU nations in the credit crisis? I maybe wrong but I thought they had been referred to as the power house etc of EU? Its also a far far larger country than other ones like the UK, Denmark etc.

As for immigration making things worse for the average person, its NOT debatable when a young girl has to go a different way home and wear different clothes due to migrant centers near her house.

Whether this is the SAME scenario being played out by EVERY SINGLE migrant hostel, is debatable. But its FACT that this migrant wave MERKEL invited has made things worse for average people in SOME areas.

onewing interesting article thanks

Chalalala

"OneWingWonder even if you're right and the far right is not the most dangerous threat to Europe today, it's not a reason not to discuss it. It's still dangerous enough to merit attention, in my opinion."

That would be a reasonable point of view, except that the far right are used by the left as a bogeyman to deflect any legitimate concerns about immigration, terrorism, or cultural incompatibility. The far right are obviously not something that any society wants to have within it, but until they start committing mass sexual assaults and murdering people in the street by the hundred, then they are more of an abstract threat than a real one.

Interesting article onewing - this stood out as it is echoed on these boards:

"Unfortunately, the Gutmenschen have been just as intolerant, denouncing anyone who opposes an open-border policy as racist and worse. Nazi slurs used to be weapons of last resort in Germany’s political rhetoric"

OneWingWonder Thanks I had not seen the article and now the discussion is closed but interesting change in the paper. Thanks for the quotes. The Guardian now is looking for subscriptions and seems they need them badly. They even phoned me and my DC at home.

well I've talked about terrorism and cultural incompatibility earlier in the thread, so hopefully that's earned me the right to talk about the far right now

personally I also feel the far right is a very real threat because I'm French and the FN are bloody scary.

AgainstTheGlock

No kidding - there's something oddly familiar about it, I just can't put my finger on it...

That would be a reasonable point of view, except that the far right are used by the left as a bogeyman to deflect any legitimate concerns about immigration, terrorism, or cultural incompatibility

Ahh I see, is this ^ whats happening, i wasn't aware it was a thing - a well known strategy^. Its makes sense now!

The far right are a threat, look at Anders Breivik, as well as the hate and aggression they stir up.

Going back to the elderly lady interviewed, does the behaviour of the men she mentioned raise any questions about German society and the fact that some sexual assaults and verbal assaults are not considered as crimes there? Does this have wider repercussions for German society?