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It seems someone in Germany has woken up and smelled the coffee

288 replies

ProfessorPreciseaBug · 28/03/2016 21:30

This from Reuters..

www.spiegel.de/international/europe/following-the-path-of-the-paris-terror-weapons-a-1083461.html#ref=nl-international

Germany is proposing to demand that refugees integrate into German life or loose rights of residency.. It appears to include learning Grman and not treating women as second class...If only some of our politicians would do likewise.

OP posts:
LumelaMme · 31/03/2016 12:23

And yet thousands of British-born girls and boys are asked to live between two cultures.
This doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. It can be a positive thing if the child concerned is not forced by the parents to behave in a certain way, and if the parents accept the broad cultural backdrop of the country where they are living. I have a friend from uni who grew up (enviably) trilingual, and made his own choices as a young adult about religious observance. His (immigrant) parents brought him up to obey the law, behave tolerantly to other people etc, and he has been a very successful adult, well integrated into British society despite being a member of a minority.

The trick is that he and his siblings have always contributed to society, accepted the law of the land, had friends outside their own community, and just got on with it.

Jonathonseagull · 31/03/2016 15:24

In my experience, children living between two cultures only too often means a child being forced to live a double life. Take for example my friend's daughter. She brought home a lovely boy. They had been at college together, she started seeing him and he came to family events, met the grandparents etc. He however, as a Muslim teenager had to keep this side of his life an absolute secret from his family as it was a secret relationship.

Another friend of my children was a Muslim girl who was not allowed to attend any extra curricular or after school clubs, even the chess society! She was taken straight back after school to home by her brother. Bright girl, at grammar school, but unable to participate fully in life. Terribly sad.

originalmavis · 31/03/2016 15:29

Maybe it's different for girls from certain cultures.

tessismynickname · 31/03/2016 16:28

" police vans have right wing magazines on display in their windscreen as happened quite recently."

Maybe the magazine was part of an ongoing investigation into far-right crime? Smile

I have been following recent 'In the News' threads with great interest. These are interesting times we live in, not all bad, thankfully but certainly many unsettling developments in the world.

As a country and economy we in Western Europe are indeed profiting from globalisation, but the profits are not fairly distributed hence a growing rich and poor divide. Trying to hold on to our busy jobs and minding the pennies, we happily buy from H&M, and other retailers selling goods that were produced under conditions we would find unacceptable for ourselves and our children. We know it, we feel uncomfortable about it, yet we do it anyway.

The top transnational firms mostly originate in the US, UK and a few select other European countries. There is enough cash-flow for the working- and middle classes to participate in the economy to keep it going but we matter much less politically than we would like to believe, sadly.

Oil money is obviously bubbling in MENA, again only a select few profit from the oil industry, the money is not shared evenly. The two strong currents are neoliberal capitalism and Salafist Islam. I don't know where to place Russia and Australia/NZ in all this.

We in Europe are increasingly bewildered as the price of globalisation becomes ever more apparent: the poorest people from Asia and Africa are poring into Europe. The Internet, smart phones, reduced cost of travel and a relative increase in economic wealth in developing countries promote migration to Europe. I think that this is a massive shame. Instead of facilitating mass migration, we should help build up developing countries in all sorts of ways and help broker peace in these regions with all our diplomatic might.

Think about just how close the African, European and Asian continents are, we are really just one divided by a tiny stretch of Mediterranean sea. Remember how they teach you in school that the world map as we most kano it is a Eurocentric view of the world? Anyway, European welfare states are less able and willing to support their citizens as it is. The poorest in the UK and other EU countries will suffer the most from mass immigration as they have to share decreasing resources and their public spaces with more incoming destitute people, who may have very different ways of life, potentially causing friction and misunderstanding in their day to day struggles.

Saying that, migration of MENA's poor is not our only problem. If you think how much of GB is actually now owned by Saudi, China and Russian oligarchs... Well powerful, rich MENA men in Europe might be just this bit more scary and worrying...

Not wanting to sound gloomy but i believe that what we are used to in Europe and the way life has been since WWII ended is on its way out. European societies have changed so much after WWI and WWII, when the upper classes and their ways got thrown over for a while I believe we are facing another massive cultural and political shift. Apologies for stream of consciousness.

tessismynickname · 31/03/2016 16:42

What I mean is that the stark divide in quality of life between Europeans and Africans and some Asians for example is a horrible unfairness and as with the rising middle classes in Europe in the early and midd 20th century, maybe now 'we' the previous global upper class citizens are being thrown over.... and the cultural mayhem is as painful to us as it was for the European upper classes to give up their privileged way of life.... sorry it's probably utter BS..... just wondered out loud.

WidowWadman · 31/03/2016 18:21

Tess - nope, it was not part of an investigation, since the complaint was made the officers in question have been moved elsewhere. www.dw.com/en/right-wing-magazine-on-german-police-vans-dashboard-courts-controversy/a-19105744

tessismynickname · 31/03/2016 18:21

Sorry I killed the thread didn't I? Blush please ignore

tessismynickname · 31/03/2016 18:24

Yes widow I agree that looks inappropriate! Is the image definitely not photoshopped?

OneWingWonder · 31/03/2016 18:27

No doubt it was reading right-wing literature like that that led German police to stand aside on NYE...

scandip · 31/03/2016 18:35

That's worrying, Widow. I heard that members of the far right have been working in some of the refugee centres in Germany.

kesstrel · 31/03/2016 18:36

It's been suggested that being torn between two cultures may be a big contributing factor for Islamic radicalisation. Young people feel that they can't measure up to what their parents want, but at the same time don't entirely fit in to mainstream culture. Radical islamist groups offer a strong sense of belonging and fraternal support, as well as an enjoyable sense of superiority to mainstream culture. What's more, such young people can turn the tables on their critical parents, by lecturing them about how they are "not good Muslims" (because not sufficiently radical/fundamentalist).

CutTheWaffle · 31/03/2016 18:45

I heard that members of the far right have been working in some of the refugee centres in Germany.

I think your concerns, scandip, would be better placed worrying about the sexual intimidation of female workers, and the rape of little boys within those centres by the refugees themselves.

WidowWadman · 31/03/2016 18:45

Nope, it's definitely not photoshopped (and at least the officer in question has been addressed). Another recent instance of police behaving dodgy: www.dw.com/en/shameful-video-of-mob-blocking-a-refugee-bus-in-germany-sparks-outrage/a-19062019

scandip · 31/03/2016 18:49

That was a bit rude waffle, I think I can decide what my concerns should be thanks.

Surely any kind of violence in the centres is a concern, whoever is the perpetrator and there do seem to have been instances of violence from security staff and sexual assaults by them too.

CutTheWaffle · 31/03/2016 18:49

young people can turn the tables on their critical parents, by lecturing them about how they are "not good Muslims" (because not sufficiently radical/fundamentalist).

There was that recent case in England of the young muslim woman who did not think her parents were strict enough muslims. She tried to get into Syria more than once but was turned back. She was in the news for another matter though; she had applied to her local council for a flat because she said she could not live with her parents (I think she is 16/17). Council declined her of course, but she went to Appeal and the council decision was overturned. She got her flat! She is so intolerant she just couldnt let bygones be bygones and allow her parents to be whatever type of muslim they want to be. She is lost.

CutTheWaffle · 31/03/2016 19:06

If you think how much of GB is actually now owned by Saudi, China and Russian oligarchs..

Tessa - I would not be surprised if the whole of Europe has been secretly sold off to a consortium of ME nations, but no one has told us! It goes some way to explain why so many MENA people were allowed in without establishing their nationalities, and why there is no real will to deal head on with sex crimes.

WidowWadman · 31/03/2016 19:07

cutthewaffle why not worry about both? There is an issue with institutional racism/xenophobia that needs to be tackled. Doesn't mean that criminal behaviour when committed by migrants can't be tackled as well.

CutTheWaffle · 31/03/2016 19:15

My father is Pakistani, mother English - she got out of the marriage early because she could see he was becoming increasingly strict and intolerant, whereas before he had lived a happy, secular Western life.

If you really want to talk about racism and xenophobia within the European, then you are on a sticky wicket. The magnitude of these is so enormous in peoples from MENA and Pakistan that what you are trying to stir up is inconsequential. There is absolutely no comparison. If you think the level of racism is bad in Europe, you have NO IDEA of the intolerance that is in the people of all the nations in that part of the world.

originalmavis · 31/03/2016 19:19

Sadly we are seeing it creeping here (like Glasgow this week) and expats are saying "we told you these people are batshit! We said that you can't just allow everyone to do what they like for fear of offending them or looking racist''

CutTheWaffle · 31/03/2016 19:44

The criminal behaviour committed by migrants as seen in Europe on NYE and after, is mostly sexually-based. It comes from believing that they are superior and therefore entitled to take their pleasure when they want. This behaviour is commonplace back home, but my point is that some of the migrants have no intention of changing it even though they know that women's status in Europe is quite different.

At the heart of this vile and disgusting behaviour - back home and in Europe - is hate of the female and knowing there are few repercussions.

originalmavis · 31/03/2016 19:50

Well that it though isn't it? The murder of Amed Shah in Glasgow is a case in point.

I assume this guy was born abroad, but either way, on what planet is stabbing someone 30 times OK? He probably knew they'd catch him but doesn't care. He will get his reward in heaven, eh? He doesn't believe that killing one human is killing all of mankind (not sure how the saying goes). Who egged him on? Who said 'that guy needs stabbing'? Who knew where he was going and why?

tessismynickname · 31/03/2016 19:54

"It's been suggested that being torn between two cultures may be a big contributing factor for Islamic radicalisation. Young people feel that they can't measure up to what their parents want, but at the same time don't entirely fit in to mainstream culture. Radical islamist groups offer a strong sense of belonging and fraternal support, as well as an enjoyable sense of superiority to mainstream culture. "
^^
This makes a lot of sense. Combined with financial support from Saudi and radical preaching in some European mosques makes a toxic situation. Sad In the end radical Islam in incompatible with our European way of life, so much is clear. Moderate or secular Islam however is more than compatible with European traditions and I embrace such communities wholeheartedly.

Cutthewaffle I agree racism and intolerance are not the reserve of privileged Europeans, on the contrary.

glad I didn't kill the thread

CutTheWaffle · 31/03/2016 20:04

It seems to me that there are two simultaneous scenarios being played out. We have the Sunni Muslims who want to do away with Shia muslims, Jews and others. And we also have the recent migrants, mostly muslim of varying sects, who believe that (i) Followers of Islam are superior, (ii) non-muslims are full of sin and need to be shown the path, by force if necessary, and (iii) women everywhere are automatically inferior, regardless of what faith they follow.

THAT, ladies, is what Europe is dealing with.

GobbolinoCat · 31/03/2016 20:22

That's worrying, Widow. I heard that members of the far right have been working in some of the refugee centres in Germany

Islamists are targeting refugees and MIGRANTS, and crime is soaring "as well as " far right groups attacking migrants.

It does make me wonder how brain washed everyone is on the far right!

don't worry I am scared of them too, I dont want them on the rise either!! BUT the Far Left are JUST AS BAD! They are also mobilised, ISLAMIST radicalisers are WORSE...and some of the migrants themselves are proving to be pretty scary.

with all of this going on, its worrying about the focus on the far right....

scandip · 31/03/2016 20:23

Quite a few sweeping generalisations there waffle, peppered with a heavy dose of scaremongering.