is it really possible that Donald trump could be president????? [Part 3]

[Lweji]

Continuing the thread, and in reply to the two last posts of thread 2

Today 08:15 OhYouBadBadKitten

I don't think it is about Trump taking risks, its more that he is a narcisstic sociopath. He feels untouchable in what he says and has no regard for the consequences.

Today 06:53 fourmummy

To be fair, voters know that all political rhetoric mostly comes to nothing (rhetoric = argumentation and persuasion, elevated to an art from in Ancient Greece). Why do you imagine Labour want to introduce votes for 16 year olds? They know that people don't become "more conservative" as they get older-they become wiser to the political process and its lies rhetoric. So what's different with Trump? Why hasn't his unbelievably unlikeable public and private persona sunk him?

Answer=risk

He is not a ready-rolled, ready-prepped and ready-to-go politician (think Blair's son parachuted into a constituency; MIliband brothers, Clintons). These are not risking much because they were cast in the role when they were made. We know that this is the case with, certainly, Clinton (numerous interviews with aides attest to this; ditto for the others). Voters are doing a risk assessment of his risks and have decided that he is worth something. It's not as simple as suggesting that if someone votes for him then they must be racist or sexist, as I've seen journos assert. Voters are effectively doing a risk assessment and deciding that given the enormous costs both to him (energy, health, time away from family, reputation, financial, career, historical implications, ) and to his voters (risk of being viewed as sexist, racist, intolerant, asshole), the benefits must outweigh these costs. Very unwise to dismiss ordinary voters as simplistically sexist and racists, as many, many journalists have (shortsightedly) done. Even non-experts are very good at performing cost/benefit analyses

As I said I don't see anything of what he says as taking a risk. Because he is saying what many people want to hear.
As for personal cost, he is clearly someone who enjoys the power, the limelight, the adoration. All that is missing for him is the ultimate power, particularly as he sees other true billionaires taking central stage.
But he doesn't have the heart to be Gates.
So, he's going for the highest office, and on the back of American voters most primal fears.

But...
He's not averse to risk. He's built his empire on it. He's had four bankruptcies. Anyone should be worried about the way he manages risk.

Here is Camille Paglia on Trump and political correctness

"I was wrong about Donald Trump: Camille Paglia on the GOP front-runner’s refreshing candor (and his impetuousness, too)

Yes, he remains thin-skinned and easily riled. But his fearlessness and brash energy also seem necessary and rare
....
If Trump wins the White House, that no-holds-barred video will go down in history as “the shot heard round the world,” Ralph Waldo Emerson’s phrase for the first salvo of the American Revolution by rural insurgents at Concord. The video signaled a popular uprising and furious pushback against the major media and political elites, who had controlled the national agenda and messaging for far too long. Diamond and Silk threw zinger after zinger in defending Trump: “Here’s the damn deal, Megyn Kelly—or Kelly Megyn, whatever your name is!…. Go back and report news on Sesame Street!…You hit below the belt, Kelly!…He was the only one up there on that stage with any common sense!… He’s going to be the next president, whether you like it or not. Get used to it, girl! Get used to it!”

This fiery endorsement blew me away because it demonstrated how Trump was directly engaging with a diverse coalition in ways that the mainstream media had completely missed.
...
Nevertheless, Trump’s fearless candor and brash energy feel like a great gust of fresh air, sweeping the tedious clichés and constant guilt-tripping of political correctness out to sea. Unlike Hillary Clinton, whose every word and policy statement on the campaign trail are spoon-fed to her by a giant paid staff and army of shadowy advisors, Trump is his own man, with a steely “damn the torpedoes” attitude."

www.salon.com/2016/03/10/i_was_wrong_about_donald_trump_camille_paglia_on_the_gop_front_runners_refreshing_candor_and_his_impetuousness_too/

Mistrigi,
I honestly cannot believe that in 2016 someone is prepared to defend anti-semitism of this type

I am more concerned that someone who can argue as well as you do and is so clearly intelegent as you can be so niave as to think that because you can see how antisemitism is very wrong and unpleasant, that everyone else should think the same as you. It is a sad but nethertheless true fact that prejuduce is rooted in ignorance. At the same time the majority of people are not well educated and rely on cultural memes to form their belief system. Suspicion of "the other" is an all too real cultural meme. Look but a little way into the news and you will easily find stories of mobs beating someone to death because they said something that upset a locally held sentiment. Shock horror but even orthodox jews have been known to behave like that.

How then to deal with the all to real racism in many if not most people hold deep within? Getting upset and saying people should not be racist, clearly does not work as your link shows all to well. Indeed simply saying, such ideas are unacceptable smacks of a totalitarian dictatorship. Perhaps your approach needs to change to get what you so clearly want.

You're still defending it, aren't you professor? What's with that weird comment about "even orthodox Jews"? Are they not just people like the rest of us?

It's obvious that in 2016 appealing to distrust of the "other" is a very successful electoral strategy. There is a large group of people who have been short-changed over the past couple of decades, who have been the victims of a race to the bottom and a rise in inequality in many western countries. They are looking for someone to blame and muslims/ Jews/ blacks/ Romanians are a handy scapegoat.

The question is whether politicians should overtly encourage and play upon these sentiments, or whether they should be conscious of the potential consequences. Plainly Trump isn't directly responsible for the antisemitic writings of his followers, even if they write (literally) in his name. But by using specific religious and ethnic groups (muslims, Mexicans) as scapegoats he has created an environment in which intolerance has become more acceptable.

"How then to deal with the all to real racism in many if not most people hold deep within? Getting upset and saying people should not be racist, clearly does not work as your link shows all to well. Indeed simply saying, such ideas are unacceptable smacks of a totalitarian dictatorship. "

Are you saying that there can be no acceptable norms of behaviour then Are you saying we should all simply let loose then with our most dearly held prejudices. Sure what can be done about it anyway? Lets pick up the guns, man the borders, put up the walls, conquer our foes and steal their oil?

I think saying people should not be racist does, in fact, work quite well. Whatever people's private ideas or prejudices might be, their acting out of those ideas will be affected by what is publicly verbalised and acceptable and what consequences follow those who do act out. Over time, the once controversial becomes normal and fewer people will hold the racist ideas or whatever it is that is publicly unacceptable.

PC clearly is a tool for rational debate. What trump is doing is hugely regressive politically and socially. And while I totally get why people are angry, as I've said before on this thread (though not for awhile I'm a bit bored), what I don't get is why anyone thinks trump is THE answer (please don't take that comment as an invitation to tell me again about your gut love for trump claig ).

''what I don't get is why anyone thinks trump is THE answer '

Because the elite are the problem and Trump is against them which is why they all ganged up on him with the media and the world "leaders".

As Camille Paglia said

"Trump’s fearless candor and brash energy feel like a great gust of fresh air, sweeping the tedious clichés and constant guilt-tripping of political correctness out to sea"

and as the Stump for Trump sisters, Diamond and Silk said,

"He was the only one up there on that stage with any common sense!…

It is the return of common sense, the end of the elite's game.

'Failing elites are to blame for unleashing Donald Trump'

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f27340fc-1848-11e6-b197-a4af20d5575e.html#axzz4AFkpqOgA

"Is this the end for the Republican elite?

The party hierarchy may not approve, but Donald Trump has energised voters who feel ignored and belittled"

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/donald-trump/12196165/Is-this-the-end-for-the-Republican-elite.html

All the plans the elite had for the people are over, all the schemes of their teenahe whizzkids are over, Trump has ended their entire game and freed the people. That is why world "leaders" are desperately asking Obama what can be done to stop Trump and the rise of the people.

i find it scary
I find a lot of the rhetoric of trump and his analogues in various countries quite threatening

though I guess if you are part of his congregation it must feel exhilarating- on the verge of some glorious victory

I am not, and so it just feels threatening.

please don't refer me to the law, the law is whatever lawmakers want it to be, and not what they don't. All manner of atrocities have been legal.

I am sure he will be president, everyone loves a winner, and even more, loves having someone to blame and kick for their society's ills.

I guess we will see what happens next.

Lol claig 'the people'

When you proclaim 'the people' are there faces like mine in there amongst them? i doubt it.

It is pretty clear that I am not one of the 'people' you have in mind- so what happens to unpeople like me?

crappymummy, after Trump wins and changes the world and the world "leaders" se their game, all people (except for the elite's teenage whizzkids) will benefit and see how good the return of common sense, liberty and prosperity is as Trump tears up the globalists' free trade deals like TTIP and TPP and NAFTA and brings jobs back.

There are no "unpeople", everyone will be a winner except the elite, their teenage whizzkids and their cronies. If you are one of those, then you will be on the losing side.

Nope, not an elite, a teenager or a crony

your faith in him is touching, but I'm guessing you fit in with his crowd. You'll never be on the wrong end of their knives

And the Mexicans obvs

Oh and Muslims

Probably anyone who joked about his small hands will be on that unpeople list too...

'but I'm guessing you fit in with his crowd'

What do you mean by his crowd? The people?

His people=
Not immigrants
Not Muslim
not Mexican
Not brown
Not black
Probably not women

I find it hard to believe if Trump is elected that he will be able to do anything much vs a hostile Congress and Senate.

OrianaBanana

There is that hope, yes.

What is "the people"? Do they live in a village?
It must be like the establishment.
Vague entities that are nice for political demagogy but belong to the realms of the zombie threat.

crappymummy, Trump's biggest fans are the African-American Stump for Trump sisters

"Women United for Trump"

Trump has nothing against immigrants, Mexicans, Muslims etc. He employs lots of them.

The other side and the media and the world "leaders" are playing up fear over Trump becuse they fear how Trump will end the globalists' game.

'I find it hard to believe if Trump is elected that he will be able to do anything much vs a hostile Congress and Senate.'

I don't know how it will happen, but Trump did not go through all this with all the world "leaders" against him for nothing. He intends to take America back off the globalists, slash its deficit and debt and turn it around very quickly. Trump says "politicians, all talk no action". I think with Trumo we will see plenty of "action". That is why world "leaders" are worried.

Oh, I'm sure there'll be tons of action

Can't wait

That there are two enthusiastic stump for trump sisters is not in the least reassuring

Sorry.

Hillary vs Trump is now about 50%-50% of the US population with Hillary slightly ahead. Wait until Trump starts revealing information on Hillary, Trump's numbers will increase and Hillary's will go down.

Trump is not owned by Wall Street, he is not on the Council of Foreign Relations etc and none of the elite's think tanks and whizzkids own him. Trump is for the people and that is why the world "leaders" are worried if he wins.

*Trump has nothing against immigrants, Mexicans, Muslims etc. He employs lots of them.

I know, he's going to be so friendly to them, even as he chucks them out of the country, builds a wall to keep them out, and threatens them in order to make them pay for the wall.

I'm so glad that he has nothing against me the way he has nothing against Muslims, Mexicans and immigrants.

Actually what Trump has said many agree with. He has a problem with illegal immigrants. Many people agree with him.

As to Muslims, we had a terrorist attack in California and he called for a ban on all Muslim immigrants until there had been a through review of the process which had clearly failed. Many people agree with him.

He doesn't have a problem with any immigrant legally here. He has made that crystal clear. He has been badly misquoted on these two major areas.

Wilting,

I think saying people should not be racist does, in fact, work quite well
There is a slight flaw in your argunment... as expressed by the polls in rcent elections across much of Europe.

I do not think saying it is unacceptable to be racist actually works. I was very struck with a tv program where a biggoted and sad little racist was presented with the dna proof of his immigrant heritage suddenly found himself having to question his own bigotry. It is very easy to ignore people telling you what to think. It is far more difficult to run away from confronting yourself.

Surely no-one is saying illegal immigrants should be allowed in. The clue's in the name.

The problem with Trump's stance on this is the batshit methods he proposes to deal with it. As if proposing to force Mexico to build a wall were not mad enough, he proposes to use the threat of amending the Patriot Act to block undocumented immigrants from sending money to Mexico as, in effect, the means of achieving this - his proposal is to tell the Mexican government that he won't implement this if they will contribute however many billions of dollars are needed for the wall. And they have made it very clear that they aren't going to give in to that.

So what this proposal would do would be to target and punish specifically people who are living in Mexico - i.e. people who aren't illegal immigrants and who have no intention of becoming immigrants - and whose only crime is knowing someone who has emigrated and being forced to accept money from them in order to live. The people who receive these payments are, almost universally, members of the Mexican population who are already living in conditions of extreme poverty. And Trump thinks it's morally acceptable to threaten such people with taking away such limited extra income as they might receive occasionally from their friends and relatives purely in order to hold their government to ransom.

Remittances sent back to Mexico have the greatest impact in the rural and poorer regions of the country, so this will affect not only the individuals concerned but also their local economies. The result will be that economic conditions inside Mexico will worsen, which will inevitably result in yet more people deciding to cross the border into the United States in search of opportunity. The Trump plan to fight undocumented immigration is specially engineered to worsen the problem it intends to solve. In so doing, Trump would be doing a huge favour to already existing cross-border smuggling operations and the black market, who will be able to put their prices up in a big way. Closing off the official channels for sending money won’t mean that everyone will stop sending it – some will just find other, less legal ways to do it. People who actually know what they're talking about, unlike Trump, have pointed out numerous potential loopholes, e.g. people who will physically carry cash in, the use of black market channels, disguising payments as stocks and shares, or as payment for goods, or sending via third parties in other countries.

Then there's the constitutional issue of whether a President actually has power to pressurise another country in the manner proposed, and whether he would actually get any support from Congress given the obvious problems with the policy. Plus it's been pointed out that in practice Western Union would undoubtedly take the issue to court and lock it up there indefinitely; and that is just is not practical for anyone to track every single bit of money that is sent to Mexico to ascertain who's sending it to whom and whether the reasons are legitimate.

So, the reality is that Trump won't deliver on this promise because he has no means of doing so; or if he tries, he will only bring about an increase in Mexican immigration. And the same will also apply to the majority of his other promises. He can't ban Muslim immigrants because big business would be up in arms if it can't bring in the staff it wants and won't want to offend Muslim trading partners, he can't reverse climate change protection, and he certainly can't do anything about so-called political correctness, largely because his perception of what that is is founded on myth. Anyone who votes for him believing anything different is in for an ugly shock.

Professor I never claimed it to be a cure. It is clearly nonetheless a useful means of demonstrating through example how to behave towards others and in facilitating rational debate. Bit startled this needs to be explained. Similar techniques work with children all the time.

You can see clearly how the break down of PC in this presidential campaign has created a hysterical atmosphere of fear and anger everywhere.

Definitely not in any way helpful or constructive.

'You can see clearly how the break down of PC in this presidential campaign has created a hysterical atmosphere of fear and anger everywhere. '

It has been created and whipped up artificially by the left because calling Trunp a "hater" is all they have got in terms of trying to stop him. It is another sign of their use of political correctness in trying to silence the truth.

It is failing because Trump is not afraid of their tricks and the people are voting for someone who has the courage to stand up to them and defeat them.

As Camille Paglia put it

"Trump’s fearless candor and brash energy feel like a great gust of fresh air, sweeping the tedious clichés and constant guilt-tripping of political correctness out to sea"

The people can't defeat them and their tricks but finally someone has come along who can and that is why the entire establishment, media and world "leaders" are terrified of him.