Cologne Sexual Assaults IX and David Davies Web Chat

[LumelaMme]

On New Year's Eve women in Cologne were amongst those who were sexually assaulted and robbed in mass attacks.
This is a link to the last thread which has links to all the others.

Some of us have begun a petition asking the government to uphold women's rights and freedoms:

THE PETITION _ Please sign and share
The petition

We also hope that tomorrow, Monday 8th February, David TC Davies MP will be on MN for a web chat between 1pm and 2pm - it should be a sticky on either Chat or In The News. David was one of the few MPs who has shown any interest in this whole issue and who has responded sympathetically to those of us concerned about women's rights in a changing world.

FFS Emily Are you serious? If you have any decency you should ask for your post to be removed before too many people see it

Belittling the suffering of innocent children in the third world who have been deliberately maimed in an effort to support your view that all refugees are saintly? Shame on you.

Trauma may be a factor in why some men rape, they're obviously not terribly well balanced are they or they wouldn't do it

men also rape just because they want to and they can.

new statesman I just read the Nick Cohen piece which I think you linked to. Very good. I have been reading and watching some of his other stuff too.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/22/progressive-liberalism-enemy-of-tolerance

I have also found Dave Rubin's interviews via Nick Cohen's blog. He seems very hot on speaking openly about difficult issues, despite silencing tactics by the 'regressive left', in order that the future doesn't get handed to the far right.

He talks with a guest briefly about Cologne here, because the guest's mother in law was asssaulted. . From about 22 min 40. Women's rights not specifically mentioned but he does have people onto his show to discuss feminism and women's rights. He also appears to have some controversial figures on the show but that is sort of the point I gather, not being bullied into not speaking to people on the right.

I think avoiding killing your own people and refusing to participate in their torture is admirable and courageous.
No one is suggesting that these men stay and join ISIS. But if Syrians don't fight ISIS, and the West putting boots on the ground is unacceptable and imperialist, and the Russians support Assad who isn't exactly charming either - then what's going to happen?

Come on, emily: what do you suggest?

Incidentally, has anyone else noticed how the following terms have been bandied about on these threads:
Islamophobe
Racist
Homophobe
Xenophobe

And yet one of the very few people accused of not liking women - in other words, of being a misogynist - is the one of the few politicians who seems to be taking this issue seriously.
Why isn't 'misogynist' just as grim an insult as the others? Lots about cultures that repress women, bugger all about actual misogynist people.

Possibly I have forgotten that I read it and that it has been taken seriously.

So who should they join? Assad? He's guilty of maiming his own people? Any of the various rebel groups? They're not all goodies either. That's the big problem with that conflict, and I wouldn't judge anyone who doesn't want to join combat with any of these groups.

Noone is claiming all refugees are saintly. And I'm pretty sure there will be some "genuine" refugees, as you like to call them, who are arseholes. Anyone who commits a criminal act should be dealt with by the criminal justice system regardless of immigration status.
It doesn't follow that a rapist automatically can't be a refugee, but must be an economic migrant.He can be either, but it's irrelevant, it's the being a rapist that should be dealt with.

Kummers, I haven't belittled anything. I was referring to the comparison someone made asserting the volunteers working with those kids are more courageous than those that have left Syria. It was a ridiculous comparison to make as Syria is a warzone. Yes, I am serious. Is India being bombed to smithereens? No. So can the two situations be compared? No.

'all refugees are saintly' Your words, your prejudices, direct your outrage to them

emily I'm engaging directly to correct your misinterpretation of my post.

I meant that the children were admirable and courageous. The children.

Lumela, what's going to happen is the country will be completely fucked, a barren almost post apocalyptic wasteland that noone can live in,which is what is happening now. Objections to anyone leaving that, simply because they happen to be male, are ridiculous.

'No one is suggesting that these men stay and join ISIS. But if Syrians don't fight ISIS, and the West putting boots on the ground is unacceptable and imperialist, and the Russians support Assad who isn't exactly charming either - then what's going to happen?'

So basically you are saying the should fight Isis really aren't you? Which a lot of them already do. The eldest family member often has to sleep outside with a gun waiting for them to pop up at nighttime, which is when the cowards often attack.

I suggest helping people to safety out of that hell hole. I'm not discussing the rest of the war with you. The pressing concern is their safety. If you want to theorise about how to end the war, go ahead.

' to be taking this issue seriously'

Jumping on a bandwagon and repeating a lot of the same claptrap I have seen on these threads funnily enough.

As opposed to the open borders bandwagon. Which seems to come with the corollary moralistic belief that anyone who demurs is a neo Nazi racist..

446

And I'm pretty sure there will be some "genuine" refugees, as you like to call them
The distinction has to be made as many people claiming to be refugees have been shown not to be refugees. That's hardly our fault. So snipe at them, please, Widow, not at the posters you refer to as 'you'.

emily
So basically you are saying the should fight Isis really aren't you?
Somebody has to. It's a totally shitty situation. That's what wars are like. It's why my uncle ended up dead in World War II: a civilian one month, and shot dead six months later. And if he and everyone else had just run, Fascism would have secured a lasting victory. So who is going to fight ISIS? But...

I'm not discussing the rest of the war with you.
No, of course you're not. Because that's a difficult and complicated and morally fuzzy conversation, not nice and cleanly split between right and wrong. To be honest, neither of us knows enough to preach about it anyway. I hold my hands up here: I really don't know what the answer is.

I suggest helping people to safety out of that hell hole.
So do I - especially the most vulnerable. And since the country is going to be a shambles - as you say yourself - afterwards, I'd like those people to be in a position to go back and rebuild it, not in a situation where the ones with the cash and qualifications will be unlikely to return. This is why I am in favour of the current British approach of funding proper camps - I'd like to see camps with employment opportunities, education, the works. The people can be got out of the hell hole without having to cross the sea to Greece: that's where we differ.

Taking the issue seriously?
repeating a lot of the same claptrap I have seen on these threads
Concerns about women's safety and creeping cultural change that may limit women's future freedoms are claptrap, are they, emily?

What was I saying about misogyny?

Lumela

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/08/germany-and-turkey-agree-deal-to-help-ease-refugee-crisis

It's a bit early for , Mari.

www.dw.com/en/war-crimes-should-not-be-part-of-syria-amnesty-says-un-rights-chief/a-19015465

"The Law Society as good as told every solicitor in England and Wales that a Muslim woman was worth half as much as a man in sharia compliant wills. Universities UK said Islamists had a human right to demand the segregation of women at public meetings. They would never say that a white woman was worth half a white man or tell her she must sit at the back of the hall at meetings. But when it comes to other cultures, they are happy to play the misogynist." From the Nick Cohen article.

It is this, isn't it. It would be the same as giving credence to the diminishment of people under apartheid. Insert misogynist creed for apartheid racist creed and this is what is is being given a value. Instead of saying piss off with your drivel as happened when apartheid was boycotted, not mollycoddled.

It would be the same as if the apartheid system would have been given licence to operate elsewhere as they did in that country at that time.

repeating a lot of the same claptrap I have seen on these threads funnily enough.

You really don't see the irony in that Emily??

I see this thread managed a whole day more or less before you arrived to kill it. I get you're on some personal crusade here but can't you allow other MNetters to have even one thread on this matter that you don't take over, make all about you and shut down?

Rumble we wont be shut down! We are all different people with different experiences but at the end of the day we all want the same goal, which is to maintain the way of life our predecessors have strived for. Yes, there are some that wants us to be shut down with the same old comments over and over but we have a louder voice and we will be heard.

There is no reasoning with these people so I find it best to ignore, ignore, ignore.

Emily does seem to intent on rubbishing the personal experiences of others, doesn't she? Apparently none of our experiences or professional lives are as valid as those of herself or her family/friends/aquaintances.

I could say I'm a trained Graphic Designer (I am) and emily would come on and rubbish that without knowing me at all or say that I don't live where I do or that I haven't got muslim friends or my son does not go to the school he does. Just because I won't agree with everything she says.

Are you a more highly trained better more valid human being than all of these people on here and in the outside world then emily?

Oh and it would be interesting to hear what ideas you'd put forward to help the situation in Syria and then we could maybe all come up with ideas we could petition politicians about for that. Leaving Syria as a post apocalyptic wasteland isn't really a solution and we should be pushing for avoiding that.

Oh god, came on to catch up and my heart dropped when I saw Emily's ravings.

Should we just go back to ignoring her in the hope she'll go away?

Multicultural liberals do nothing of the sort, however. They are always trying to police debate.
From the Nick Cohen article dotty linked upthread

Do you think Nick Cohen has read any of these threads? Because he's bang on the money.

MrWriter, lift up your heart, Emily is the gift that keeps on giving.

Not only have I learned a huge amount from the free-thinking, intelligent, critically literate posters here, I have also discovered the phenomena of Social Justice Warriors and am highly amused by various illogical bits of emotive personal invective that underlines the frightening similarities between the SJW phenomenon and Neo Nazis.

Don't pretend that your hate is [focussed on] social justice or equality, and don’t pretend that you are any different than the fascists and the Nazis that you claim to be diametrically opposed to. You are, more or less, exactly the same.

Such fun.

Meanwhile, shall we email Kris Hopkins (MP Keighley) to ask about the possibility of a cross-party group being set up as per the fantastic idea yesterday?

Anyone got any idea of a labour or libdem MP who might be capable of difficult thinking?

I was wondering about Lord Steel?

January I used to work alongside Ed Davey (Edward in those days) and I will have nothing to do with the LibDems. They are neither fish nor fowl - all of them are simply taking an MP's salary and expenses, having their CTax and mortgage paid, etc. After becoming MP for Kingston & Sutton but just before he left the job he was in, one of his female co-workers mentioned that perhaps equal pay for women might come about soon, and Davey just snorted and walked off. She was appalled.

It seems there was a parliamentary debate recently about 'preventing violence against women: role of men'. The MPs on there may be worth sounding out. www.theyworkforyou.com/whall/?id=2016-02-04a.465.0