Cologne Sexual Assaults IX and David Davies Web Chat

[LumelaMme]

On New Year's Eve women in Cologne were amongst those who were sexually assaulted and robbed in mass attacks.
This is a link to the last thread which has links to all the others.

Some of us have begun a petition asking the government to uphold women's rights and freedoms:

THE PETITION _ Please sign and share
The petition

We also hope that tomorrow, Monday 8th February, David TC Davies MP will be on MN for a web chat between 1pm and 2pm - it should be a sticky on either Chat or In The News. David was one of the few MPs who has shown any interest in this whole issue and who has responded sympathetically to those of us concerned about women's rights in a changing world.

To be eligible for asylum you must fulfill one of these criteria

Which one would you like to see removed so that people would not be allowed to flee from persecution?

Widow I think the point is, many people are not actually fleeing from persecution. The ones that are - need help and we need to be firmer with those that don't, so we can....help those genuinely in need.

All the young men are very savvy in getting rid of finger prints, pass ports etc.

Amouse - Vlad and you said the terms need updating. Which is why I wanted to know what exactly you wanted to see changed about the eligibility criteria.

widow It's more about processes

"Which is why I wanted to know what exactly you wanted to see changed about the eligibility criteria."

oh dear, if you are in the least familiar with the asylum process and yet are unable to either see the need or think of ways to improve it, i'm sorry I cannot be bothered to invest my time or brain capacity. widow

vlad you were asked a perfectly reasonable question. It makes it very hard to debate an issue if people aren't prepared to do so in good faith, and who resort to passive aggressive wineglass icons when asked to defend their positions.

What makes someone a refugee, or not, isn't something that governments decide ... It's determined by international agreements, and the courts.

I'd agree that the pressures on some european countries are such that resources need to be targeted at determining who is, and isn't, eligible for asylum. It's a mistake to believe that left-leaning people just want to open borders. Some of us think it is important to follow due process so as not to devalue the status of "refugee" which has a very specific meaning in international law. However, it's clear that while the claim to asylum of some migrants may be turned down, Syrians are very unlikely to be refused, and even those who are refused, cannot be returned home (since it would be in clear breach of international obligations to return someone to a war zone).

I think the point is, many people are not actually fleeing from persecution

It has been verified by, among others, Amnesty and the BBC, that a significant majority of the hundreds of thousands of young men streaming into Europe are economic migrants, not refugees.

And antisocial and illegal behaviour by those lads should be stamped out immediately by anyone who claims to care about refugees as they are the ones responsible for beginning to turn the tide of sympathy and giving the far right an early Christmas present.

no mistgirl, I am not interested in a detailed discussion about asylum laws and processes right now.

it's a complex area and i am familiar with some of the implications and challenges through my professional background. Which is probably why I am reluctant to talk about it in detail on a forum .

"it very hard to debate an issue if people aren't prepared to do so in good faith,"

That is so true.

Passive aggressiveness is underrated imo. I prefer it to outright hostility.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3437252/Twelve-men-repeatedly-gang-raped-abused-vulnerable-teenage-schoolgirl-saw-utterly-worthless-jailed-total-140-YEARS.html

I'm speechless.

I feel so sad that some migrants/asylum seekers have repaid the generosity of some European countries by committing these appalling acts. I feel truly torn between wanting to extend compassion to people in truly appalling circumstances and feeling very strongly about wanting to protect the rights and safety of women, children and older people. It's so difficult and I don't know what the answer is...

I feel so sad that some migrants/asylum seekers have repaid the generosity of some European countries by committing these appalling acts.

I know but this is the rub, who are the true refugees from syria this is where we need clarity.

As far as I am aware the true refugees are not causing much or any of a problem?

This is the sad thing, how much more trapped can these poor people be.

Moreshabby just read that article. It takes a brave man to speak out about this sort of abuse doesn't it?

It's so difficult and I don't know what the answer is...

I would say first question is - who are these other migrants and distinguishing them from the genuine souls fleeing syria. separtaing the two issues.

There's a program on TV at the moment entitled 'Is Britain racist?'. They're showing an EDL rally, disgusting, moronic, football hooligan type of people. I don't want to align myself with those sort of people, they stand for everything I abhor. So my heart sinks when I read more and more of these cases of sexual attacks in Europe and the UK as it's just fodder for these groups. Stuck between a rock and a hard place really.

I feel and I think most do - the same pain Destiny.

so much censorship but they are happy to give the EDL a platform?

Stuck between a rock and a hard place really.
That's exactly it, Destiny: it's that fragile middle ground that we've been trying to stake out for the past 8-and-a-bit threads. EDL-type nut-jobs on the one hand, and people who call you a racist and an Islamophobe for worrying about the fragility of women's rights on the other.

You're more than welcome to join us.

There is another thread running where a woman complains about low-grade harassment from two men, possible speaking Arabic, at a leisure centre in Ireland. Lots of people insinuating she must be racist

My concern, as others have said, is how long before this is normal so we stop using leisure pools, then we stop going out in skirts, then stop going out to eat and drink with female friends at night, then our husbands say "Maybe you should wait until I can come there with you" and before we know it we are prisoners.

Thanks I've read most of those threads and agree with a lot of it. My heart sank when I read about those attacks in Cologne and other places and how the press and politicians dealt with it. I so want to believe in the goodness of pp and think it is a tiny minority that's perpetrating these attacks but at the same time I don't want to see hard won women's freedoms being lost.

I used to work as a trainer for a charity and on a course I once taught there was a Muslim woman, in her mid, late 40s who expressed the views that if her daughter was in a violent relationship she would tell her to stay in it and also if she had a daughter who was gay, she would murder her. I flagged up my concerns with management but they were dismissed. I heard that a year later she was dismissed from the organisation for telling a Muslim woman she was supporting that she should be covering up. It's not just men who have these ideas about how women should behave.

'This woman's daughter was helping refugees and the family is thanked in this inhumane way. Fuck all the people who excuse men who rape as trauma victims, fuck them, fuck you'.

Vladimir, noone excused anyone for being a trauma victim. Trauma may be a factor in why some men rape, they're obviously not terribly well balanced are they or they wouldn't do it. Seeking explanations is not seeking excuses.

As for your question as to how many native Austrians rape women, why not find some statistics? Random rapes outdoors are rather rare I think and I don't think perpetrators come from a particular ethnic group.

Does the rape of frail elderlywomen normally get you so cross or just tis particular instance?

' violent influx of migrants' Where? Who? How many comprise this?

'Last year a young Syrian or Iraqi man was asked on camera why he left and he replied that he did not want to be forced to join the army and to fight. I want a life, he said'.

What is the problem with that Britt? I think avoiding killing your own people and refusing to participate in their torture is admirable and courageous.

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Lumela keep up please

I think leaving behind those who are too sick, poor, badly-connected, the wrong religion or just plain old women and children is far from admirable and courageous.

My school friend has an orphanage in India for children who have been deliberately maimed. They are learning to live approximations of a normal life and make little things to sell to earn money.

Their own families and society have rejected them, but if you make a donation, they will send you a picture they've drawn.

They'll never leave the town they're living in, never mind the country but their gratitude, humility and desire to find the most positive things in next to nothing moves me beyond words.

They, in my opinion, are admirable and courageous.

This has been a fascinating and hopeful day. Thanks to all who have made positive contributions. Goodnight

www.bustle.com/articles/91769-new-york-bill-tackles-groping-and-grinding-on-the-subway-because-that-stuff-is-seriously-not

From The Crown Prosecusion Service: Rape and Sexual Offences Chapter 19: Sentencing. Aggravating factors and Mitigating factors. Sexual Offences Act 2003
www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/sentencing/

Your friend doesn't have barrel bombs flying at her though does she january?