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Sex Attacks in Cologne and other European Cities Part VIII

999 replies

Cologne2016Petition · 26/01/2016 21:04

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Let the debate continue.....

OP posts:
januarybrown1998 · 27/01/2016 19:46

Ghost but are those people genuine refugees?

Or are they economic migrants who want to enter a country illegally and cause damage, danger and mayhem whilst they do?

If they are being puppeteered by a left wing group, I'd say they scored a spectacular own goal last week.

OneWingWonder · 27/01/2016 19:50

Fortunately the British public are waking up to the agenda of far left virtue-signallers: the latest YouGov poll puts support for taking migrants from Calais at 15% YES, 73% NO, and 12% DON'T KNOW.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12124936/Calm-down-David-Camerons-bunch-of-migrants-PMQs-attack-was-not-a-gaffe.html

Corbyn is on to a massive loser.

MariscallRoad · 27/01/2016 19:51

I agree it is little too late.

We can write to our MPs to ask details of existing measures that could deal with the situation. One can think of amendments to proposed in the Antisocial Behaviou Act 2014 and petitioned for that purpose.

This site has interesting details. I just found it.

asbhelp.co.uk/what-the-law-says/

GhostofFrankGrimes · 27/01/2016 19:56

Why focus on a minority and in some cases unverified stories? The right are the masters of this. Just look at peaceful demonstrations against the government. There will be a tiny number of arrests and the right will focus of this ignoring the overwhelming majority of peaceful protesters. The right will hold this up as example of how "lefties" cannot be trusted to behave etc.

Same happening with refugees - focus on a minority and thus change the narrative from "refugees in crisis" to "lawless immigrants danger to our national security".

AMouseLivedinaWindMill · 27/01/2016 20:00

Getting rather convoluted isn't it, when its the far left, using vulnerable migrants for their own selfish agenda, encouraging them and enabling them to riot and be lawless, then drag down the reputation of the majority of the camp. Confused

OneWingWonder · 27/01/2016 20:04

GhostofFrankGrimes

'Same happening with refugees - focus on a minority and thus change the narrative from "refugees in crisis" to "lawless immigrants danger to our national security".'

I'm sure it will be of the greatest comfort to the thousand women sexually assaulted in Cologne on NYE that their attackers were only a minority.

Do you think the left could find some other societies to fuck up and leave ours alone?

emilybohemia · 27/01/2016 20:14

Amouse, my other half has volunteered, not in Calais. The things they took had to be oked by the country they were going to and there were strict rules about what you could give to refugees.

I don't even think it's just 'lefties' volunteering. Sometimes it is just people that feel touched by what is happening. I've not heard of anyone encouraging anyone to riot.

I think it was awful of David Cameron to call them a 'bunch of migrants', on holocaust memorial day too. There is measles in the Calais camp. A father showed Jeremy Corbyn the amount of weight his daughter had lost. The sneering attitude and sniggering from those sitting behind him turned my blood cold. Cameron despises the poor.

AMouseLivedinaWindMill · 27/01/2016 20:26

There is no issue as per the article about the things volunteers take to the camps.

The point is - there is a hard left contingent who believe in the philosophy of countries without borders. They are using the cover of being volunteers to manipulate and give false hope to vulnerable young men in the camp.

Bona fide charity workers say its hard to tell the difference between geniunee volunteers and the hard left sneaking in.

Of course you can't say that every single volunteer comes from one faith or political party or country.

Thats not the point. The point is the hard left are using these people for their own ends.

I've not heard of anyone encouraging anyone to riot

You just have.

VertigoNun · 27/01/2016 20:39

These threads are getting quite anti refugee. I had an issue with the organised mass terror attack at Cologne railway station on NYE. I don't want that behaviour and coverup/victim blaming to continue.

I am sad that the home office are focused on after care which is currently poor. Has anyone spoken to Andy Burnham about his response?

GraceKellysLeftArm · 27/01/2016 20:50

When my relatives fled the Nazis (we are Jewish), they chose not to rape their way across Europe. So that's a VERY poor parallel to attempt to draw.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 27/01/2016 21:03

Yes, lets ignore the plight of the majority of refugees and instead indulge in tabloid sensationalism and hyperbole. No critical thinking required here. Hmm

LumelaMme · 27/01/2016 21:14

Grace, you can't lump all refugees together like that. That's exactly what I've spent seven threads trying not to do. Because it isn't just, or fair.

I agree with vertigo: the tone of this thread has changed, and it makes me uneasy.

januarybrown1998 · 27/01/2016 21:31

The point is the hard left are using these people for their own ends

And I fear the hard right will too.

If you watch scenes like Calais, and literally nobody can say if those men are genuine refugees or economic migrants (and believe me, that is starting to matter a huge amount to the British public, upon whose goodwill this enterprise will eventually depend), you can understand why there is fear and bewilderment and increasingly polarised attitudes on both sides.

Nobody would be cruel enough to deny aid to genuine refugees. In my professional and private experience, the British give continuously and generously to stop disease, fight poverty, supply water, mosquito nets, medicine.

But I believe we also need to be able have a grown up conversation about the numbers of non-refugee migrants who are demanding to live in the UK, who wish to do so through illegal and aggressive means.

The majority of people I have met do not see 'heroes.' They see aggressive men.

And to shout down the concerns of those, including the vulnerable and elderly, in our society who express those fears as 'racists' and xenophobic and whatever buzzwords are in today, is not on.

This needs to be a conversation; everyone must listen and except that there will be uncomfortable beliefs on both sides.

I think we all need to stop abusing the emotional arguments; it does not add anything to the debate to hear how sad you are. Everyone is sad about it. Instead, let us start thinking practically about real and workable solutions.

januarybrown1998 · 27/01/2016 21:33

accept FFS.

Inkanta · 27/01/2016 21:37

'But I believe we also need to be able have a grown up conversation about the numbers of non-refugee migrants who are demanding to live in the UK, who wish to do so through illegal and aggressive means.'

Nail on the head. Why is it so hard to have such a conversation?

GourmetSoup · 27/01/2016 21:39

It's important to recognise that migration can bring risks (esp to the most vulnerable in society)

emilybohemia · 27/01/2016 21:54

Oh for pitys sake Grace, neither have they. You are labelling themall for what a few people have done. In doing so, you do exactly what the Nazis did, saying that a whole group have the same characteristics. The proportion of men amongs the refugees that have attacked anyone is miniscule.

Amouse, well no, I haven't, I've just hard poorly substantiated rumour about the 'hard left.' I don't see aggressive men. I see desperate people protesting, which I don't blame them for.

I think whether they are economic migrants or refugees, they don't belong in that rotten place. There's been a lot of conversation. I would like to see action that gets them out of there. 'They might be bad so let's leave them to rot and die' seems frighteningly close to the ideology of the dark times in European history. There is no justification for leaving people to live like that, whether there are risks in migration or not.

januarybrown1998 · 27/01/2016 21:57

Inkata, I've spent a lot of time recently trying to establish why not.

I think, and this is empirical observation and research, that on one hand it is extremely difficult for many people to think independently about the refugee/migrant issue.

They have been brought up to ascribe emotional responses to such situations, and those who do the most public hand-wringing and blaming the government, the West, the class system, financial inequality etc, get the loudest cheers.

If you watch TV or listen to radio debates, there is always applause when someone calls out an opponent for racism, xenophobia, elitism, uncaring, prejudice etc.

There is sadly often booing for the speakers who make practical suggestions or allude to difficult cultural issues; much easier to decry them (see above) than go against the group think.

I can see why; it is intimidating even if you have been trained and educated to think independently. Sadly for many, that option has never been there and the topic of critical thinking and the national curriculum was discussed intelligently in an earlier thread.

I was not brought up here; my education was at very liberal international schools all over the world. My parents were free thinkers and I was lucky to be present for many difficult debates, round our table.

We grew up with all kinds of viewpoints; Jewish, Lebanese, French West Indian, you name it.

The most important thing I learned was to listen and to assume you will be heard in turn.

I have seen that on these threads, sadly elsewhere on this wonderful forum there is still the smug, emotive impractical invective.

But if we can still keep debating here, let's do it.

If we allow the discussion to be driven underground because someone thinks we shouldn't have it, then we are back to square one.

AMouseLivedinaWindMill · 27/01/2016 22:00

Amouse, well no, I haven't, I've just hard poorly substantiated rumour about the 'hard left

No, its not a rumour at all. Its fact and its causing the real charity workers lots of problems.

The police and charity officials want them stopped.

The Times is behind the pay wall but there is more on it here.

www.express.co.uk/news/world/635206/Calais-chief-hard-left-activists-should-be-kicked-out

Their aim is to highlight the situation in calais and defy the authorities on the ground.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 27/01/2016 22:04

Ah, the Express. Balanced coverage no doubt. Which party do they back again?

Inkanta · 27/01/2016 22:04

January

Great post! Smile

emilybohemia · 27/01/2016 22:13

Well January, take away emotional responses and you have some pretty hard and cold justifications for leaving people to live or die in misery. Do I go by my emotional response when I see people fleeing death and living hell? Yes I bloody well do. Feeling compassion for them isn't handwringing. There is nothing smug about it.

There's been a lot of alluding to cultural issues and now these arguments are successfully demonising people and creating an enemy of innocent people. Say that they might be a danger to us and a lot of people are ok with awful things being done to them,when it seems it is being done for the greater good of 'our way' of life.

Leaving emotional arguments aside is ludicrous.

AMouseLivedinaWindMill · 27/01/2016 22:13

Well, its a fact, and they want the Brit police to step up and help, they also organised a blockade on a motorway last week.

The left, whipping up trouble giving the rest of the migrants a bad press. Sad isnt it.

GourmetSoup · 27/01/2016 22:19

Emily, is it fair to accept the risks on behalf of others (esp those most affected)

grimbletart · 27/01/2016 22:25

Hard left, hard right. Lot in common i.e. using people for their own politically driven ends. They both suck.