Brexit: what would happen to EU citizens living in UK?

[marghini]

I am a EU citizen and I have been living, working and paying taxes in the UK for a while.

I am really concerned about what would happen to the EU citizens who built a life for themselves and settled here in the UK in case of a Brexit.

Do you think all EU citizens already living in the UK would be pushed out? Or perhaps the government would just stop allowing further EU immigration?

Mistigri

So, springing tell us, how long have you lived abroad? And what experience do you have personally of the registration of non-EU immigrants in european countries?

How is this relevant to this discussion? You have already stated you don't believe ex-pats would be expelled en masse. Why do you want me to reveal personal details on a public forum? I am not prepared to do so.

Among my British acquaintances, those who are French civil servants are among the most concerned (and now in a big rush to get naturalised).

They've probably been listening to Cameron's Project Fear spin, instead of investigating their inalienable rights under international law.

Our rights to move elsewhere in the EU are also likely to be curtailed - while we may retain the right to remain in our host country, our rights to move elsewhere in the EU to work and study may well be restricted

That's what happens when nations are sovereign. They decide who to admit to their countries. They decide that based on laws they make. If you had skills they required they'd welcome you. If they want to increase their populations to stimulate their economies, they'd welcome you. If you satisfy their residency qualifications, they welcome you.

Britons have lived in (now) EU countries long before the EU was established. Lawrence and Gerald Durrell wrote books while living in Corfu, Grace Fields lived on Capri, Lord Byron managed to get himself around quite a few (now ) EU countries without the assistance of the EU. When the current crop of British pensioners living in their Spanish villa finally croak, do you think the Spanish will say no new Brits can move to Spain to live in them? Seriously?

You couldn't just decide to go and live Australia, or New Zealand, or America, or Canada. Why do you think you should have the right to live without constraints anywhere in the world YOU chose to?

springing I don't think I should be allowed to live anywhere - but I would like to retain the rights I already have (to live and work anywhere in the Europe Union).

Your experience of living abroad is absolutely relevant to this thread, because as most expats will tell you, having a theoretical right to reside somewhere does not mean you don't have to jump through bureaucratic hoops, nor that your rights will be correctly upheld by local authorities.

My civil service friends are concerned because they are particularly aware of the French civil service's ability to make the lives of immigrants difficult. It has nothing to do with Cameron - I have yet to meet an expat with any time for him - and everything to do with an understanding how host states can make life difficult for migrants, even when those migrants have a legal right to reside.

springing I don't think I should be allowed to live anywhere - but I would like to retain the rights I already have (to live and work anywhere in the Europe Union).

Then you need to vote to remain in the EU.

Your experience of living abroad is absolutely relevant to this thread, because as most expats will tell you, having a theoretical right to reside somewhere does not mean you don't have to jump through bureaucratic hoops, nor that your rights will be correctly upheld by local authorities.

I will repeat. I am not prepared to reveal what experience I may have of living abroad on a public forum.

Any experience I may have had of living abroad is not relevant to the subject of this thread which is titled:

Brexit - what would happen to EU citizens living in the UK?

Personally, I wouldn't want to live in any country where my "rights will not be correctly upheld by local authorities". But that's your choice.

springing I don't get a vote ...

Some people are surprised that it's possible to have been an ex-pat for up to 15 years and still be able to vote.

under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court no country is permitted to single out and expel any particular section of its population.

So how does the USA manage to successfully deport many illegal aliens each yr? And countries often manage to deport foreign criminals. I think there might be a few loopholes...

Because they are being deported because they entered the country illegally or committed crimes.

The Rome Statute is about singling out groups, so the U.S. would be breaking it if it, for example, deported all people who were born or Mexico or whose parents were born in Mexico purely because they were of Mexican origin.

Deporting someone who has entered the country illegally or committed another crime who just happens to be Mexican is not the same thing. For example, plenty of Irish, British, Indian, Pakistani, French, Vietnamese and other nationalities are deported too under exactly the same laws, it does not single out one group, only lawbreakers of any nationality or race.

I suspect the vast majority of concerned citizens posting on this thread won't get a vote - either because they are British and have been abroad too long, or because they are EU citizens in the UK.

There are plenty of threads for the kippers and the outers to post anti-EU propaganda; I don't think it's unreasonable for those of us whose lives are very directly affected by the outcome of the referendum, but who will not get a say, to share our concerns - without being accused of supporting "project fear".

We have genuine concerns, which are based on real, practical experience of living abroad - many of us have experience of how it was before free movement fully came into effect. I'm a fluent French speaker who has spent the best part of two decades of working in France, and I have concerns about the administrative burden this is going to place on us. What chance does your average Brit expat in France or Spain have, with their limited language skills and lack of experience of local bureaucracies? These are the people who will eventually flood home to the UK - not people like DH and me in skilled, highly paid work.

To be honest, I think that compared to the erosion of democracy I really couldn't give a expats have their knickers in a twist about filling in a few forms. People manage it in the U.S., Australia, Japan, India. The world isn't going to implode because some people have to deal with a bit of bureaucracy.

If these unskilled people with poor language skills are going to flood back (which I doubt, because as far as I'm aware there aren't any great numbers of them due to no 'pull' factor of higher wages for unskilled jobs are absent elsewhere in Europe) then I'm not concerned either. Because apparently we're going to be struggling without a supply of cheap EU labour (or so the in camp claims) so surely we would need them?

It is complete hysteria.

OP, even if you married your DP you wouldn't be eligible for British citizenship. EU citizens are not allowed to follow the spouse route. I am married but because I am from the EU I don't qualify. I can't use the NHS (although nobody asks) because I don't work, which hopefully is not the case for you, I had to apply for private health insurance and even with my husband working and having always paid our bills/rent/mortgage etc. doesn't matter that much to them. I was hoping for a NO vote so in the next 5 years I could try to qualify but I am in limbo.

And the massive support for a Brexit which I have lately seen on mumsnet is deeply depressing and horrifying The country I come from is a lot smaller without the influence which Britain has and we were always under the impression that small countries got bullied into doing whatever the big and strong countries wanted. So all this whining on here and elsewhere is totally and

Mistigri even if people got British citizenship they would still want their families to be able to visit them often from over the continent so a Brexit would make things harder. Now you can cross over to France or reach Belgium for lunch (I haven't but many British friends and family have) depending on the weather without having to apply for visas, which could take only 1 day anyway but it's not the same.

BillSykesDog which "cheap" labour are you talking about? Most doctors and nurses/midwives e.g. come from abroad. Now with the visas restrictions (not very recent) not many doctors can come from outside the EU. Apart from what is also written in the newspapers I have personally noticed so many more Eastern European nurses and doctors and chemists, filling the gaps which Asian doctors aren't allowed to fill at the moment and at this rate. A few weeks ago my son was treat by an Indian born doctor followed by a Polish doctor. Before that there was a Polish nurse speaking to a Polish couple in their language. And our local chemist has another Eastern European in charge. Or they could be Chezh/Slovak, who knows? They all sound like Russian to me anyway

And I know plenty of people who work in the financial and IT sectors. My sister also used to have a highly qualified job until she left. Unfortunately she had never applied for citizenship and my husband had warned her repeatedly many years ago, almost harassing her about what would happen.

Asylum seekers who break into lorries don't get deported for having committed that crime (of breaking into the lorry). Even when they lose application for asylum, they are deported for other reasons. Not for the breaking & entering. Funny applications of law.

If folk are so worried about democracy, why does UK still have House of Lords & a Monarch?

Hi!
This is going to be my first post on mumsnet :)
I believe we have not discussed a situation as mine:
Me and my husband are both from EU, I've been living her for almost 5 years ( not yet qualified for permanent citizen card (now, while UK is in EU not essential yet anyway) or naturalisarion, however because my partner has been living, working and paying taxes here for more than 7 years we were eligible to apply for a British passport for our baby who was born last year... So basically, the question is:
What would happen to EU citizens who has a child who has a UK passport? :)

Cheers girls and have a lovely day! X

Oh, forgotten to add: we both will be applying for naturalisation in the future, of course if will be still possible, it is just I am not qualified yet and my husband first need to obtain a permanent resident card, which he is doing now ( just the matter of time and money, really).

chocorabbit
Mistigri even if people got British citizenship they would still want their families to be able to visit them often from over the continent so a Brexit would make things harder.

It wouldn't. Every EU citizen needs a passport to come into Britain at the momemnt and every British person needs to show their passport on exit. Post-Brexit this would be exactly the same.

Now you can cross over to France or reach Belgium for lunch (I haven't but many British friends and family have) depending on the weather without having to apply for visas, which could take only 1 day anyway but it's not the same.

If France and Belgium want our casual day trip trade they will not seek to end that trade by insisting we get visas. I to did a day trip Belgium pre-EU without a visa. I had a 3 week holiday in Germany on a child's passport issued by our local Post Office back in the 1960s. It was actually easier to travel then.

To suggest that any EU country will require Britons to get a visa is just silly. We've always been able to travel to not just Europe, but throughout most of the world on a passport alone.

Chocorabbit

Most doctors and nurses/midwives e.g. come from abroad.

Not quite.

Nationality of NHS staff at Sep 2013

British 78.5%
EU 3.6%
Commonwealth 4%
Unknown 11.4%
Other2.6%

Missmachete

To answer your question:

What would happen to EU citizens who has a child who has a UK passport?

Nothing. You and your husband and child and any other children you may have in the future have a right to stay in your country of habitual residence.

I wish the Govt would make this clear so that people do not get frightened worrying that they might have to leave the UK - they won't as it suits the Govt for this fear to continue.

Everyone is allowed to carry on living in the country they are currently living and working in. FACT.

This is because under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court no country is permitted to single out and expel any particular section of its population. To attempt to do so would be considered 'a crime against humanity'. No EU country or Britain would ever attempt to breach their obligations under that law and be deemed guilt of a 'crime against humanity'.

Those people from other EU countries who are living in the UK at the time we exit will continue to have an alienable right to do so.

Don't worry.

that

And British naturalisation will still be possible after the UK has exited the EU. I have a child who's partner is planning to do that too eventually.

Most doctors and nurses/midwives e.g. come from abroad.

Completely untrue!

no country is permitted to single out and expel any particular section of its population

Of course no country is going to do that. What they will do is make life far less convenient, no more reciprocal health care, more rigourous immigration checks on entering and leaving, no more reciprocal welfare and benefits etc.

SpringingIntoAction,
Thank you for your reply. The lack of facts and information might be frightening, or maybe I just could not find the right information. Thanks again. How it would affect me then in negative way (if UK will leave the EU) or it won't change my rights and life here?

To be honest I completely understand both sides (to stay and remain), but from my personal experience (pls don't think I am sellfish) I am just afraid that I might need to leave the UK. Well, I don't have where to go, I don't have a family except my son and my husband here and I might speak with an accent and I might still do some grammar mistakes when typing, but this country is my home, I want to live here, to work here and raise my son here. I want him to speak English fluently ( my husband is fluent in it too) and I want to get a British nationality one day too, if I could I would already have done it. I have not even travelled anywhere during last 4 years except once to Paris.

Regarding NHS staff, I live in the area where there is not so many immigrants in comparison, and even in a local hospital we do have a lot of foreign staff. However I think leaving the EU would have both advantages and disadvantages for NHS. Here is some data I have found.
www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/256

Of course no country is going to do that. What they will do is make life far less convenient, no more reciprocal health care, more rigourous immigration checks on entering and leaving, no more reciprocal welfare and benefits etc.^^
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This is what I am afraid of too...

Every EU citizen needs a passport to come into Britain at the momemnt and every British person needs to show their passport on exit. Post-Brexit this would be exactly the same.

Neither of these things is true. At present you can travel to the UK using your european national ID card, and the UK does not habitually operate border controls when exiting the country, only when entering. I do not know if this will change after a brexit, but it is reasonable to assume that an EU citizen will not be able to travel to the UK without a passport.

It's hard to have much confidence in anything you assert when you make such elementary errors.

What they will do is make life far less convenient yes - I think this is the view that is widely shared by those who are presently living in Europe.

My own opinion is that any British expats who cannot document "regular residence" in an EU country risk being removed, and that there will be a steady trickle of the older, less linguistically-able and less employable Britons back to the mothership, because host countries will make life generally more difficult for these people.

MissMachete't

I think your English is just great. I wouldn't be able to write posts like you have in a foreign language!

Thank you for your reply. The lack of facts and information might be frightening, or maybe I just could not find the right information. Thanks again.

I spoke to an MEP this morning about this lack of information about EU citizens who currently in in the EU. He agreed that the Rome Statute needs to be more widely known so people are not scare into thinking they would have to leave - they have the right to stay in the UK, Full stop.

How it would affect me then in negative way (if UK will leave the EU) or it won't change my rights and life here?

It doesn't change your rights or life here. In fact you'd probably have a claim under HR Act as your son is British born, therefore British. This is his home country. No British person can de expelled from their home country - that is something the United Nations prohibit. He has a right under Human Rights Law to a family life, as do you as his parents. Therefore under HR law you'd also have the right to live in the UK.

To be honest I completely understand both sides (to stay and remain), but from my personal experience (pls don't think I am sellfish) I am just afraid that I might need to leave the UK. Well, I don't have where to go, I don't have a family except my son and my husband here and I might speak with an accent and I might still do some grammar mistakes when typing, but this country is my home, I want to live here, to work here and raise my son here. I want him to speak English fluently ( my husband is fluent in it too) and I want to get a British nationality one day too, if I could I would already have done it.

Honestly - you must have no fear that you may have to leave the UK. You have A RIGHT IN LAW to stay in Britain even if Britain leaves the EU. Honestly. Please do not be worried. Talk to your local MP. If he's honest he will tell you the same - you can stay.

This scare-mongering that the Government is trying to do is making me very angry. It is pure deceit designed to cause a lot of unnecessary worry to people who are not affected by it.

However I think leaving the EU would have both advantages and disadvantages for NHS.

I can't see any advantages at all. We are having to limit immigration from non-EU countries because we cannot limit immigration from EU countries. That means we are turning down doctors and medical staff from throughout the world who may want to come and work in our NHS because we make it too difficult for them, as non-EU people, to get the permission to come here to work.

Meanwhile we must allow any EU citizen to come and use the MHS, even if they have no skills that benefit the country.

We can't go on like this.