Brexit: what would happen to EU citizens living in UK?

[marghini]

I am a EU citizen and I have been living, working and paying taxes in the UK for a while.

I am really concerned about what would happen to the EU citizens who built a life for themselves and settled here in the UK in case of a Brexit.

Do you think all EU citizens already living in the UK would be pushed out? Or perhaps the government would just stop allowing further EU immigration?

I think every EU immigrant in the UK should be entitled to a NIN since you need it to receive medical assistance. So I assume that yes, children and SAHMs have NIN too.

I don't think that is correct:

"The NHS operates a residence-based healthcare system. Most NHS services are free to people who are ordinarily resident in the UK and are not dependent upon nationality, payment of UK taxes, national insurance (NI) contributions, being registered with a GP, having an NHS number or owning property in the UK. Ordinarily resident means, broadly speaking, living in the UK on a lawful and properly settled basis for the time being, and you will be asked to prove this."

www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/uk-visitors/moving-to-england/Pages/moving-to-england-from-the-eea.aspx

itsallgoingtobefine what I mean is that at the moment any EU immigrant living in the UK can get a NIN, just presenting a proof of residence (bill, bank letter to your address or rental contract) and your EU passport.

So even those who do not have it because they never applied for it can obtain it easily at the moment.

Lurkinghusband Je m'en fous de l'idée que toutes les anglaises qui ont quitté le Royaume-Uni ne peuvent pas parler la langue de leur pays de résidence. De ma coté, je me debrouille bien. De dire autrement, je trouve raciste.....

But you obviously disagree!

Paying tax since 1970's and don't have a say! The thing is it's more difficult to apply for citizenship then people think. asylum seekers go to Germany because it's much easier than here, etc.
What I find unfair is that we've been paying tax all those years and are still considered to be a new, (living here 5 years and paying tax just 5 years) Yes that's right because if you want to become a citizen you have to first apply for a EU certificate proving your European and working here, which will take upto 6 months (they keep all your passports and important paperwork for 6 mths!)
After receiving that proof that you are EU you might have to wait a year to then apply for citizenship (don't know how long they'll keep your passports again for!) and only after you can get a passport. When I rang them up before asking for information they all said different things so I didn't apply over the years.
If you've paid tax all those years why get treated like you haven't?

If you want to become a citizen, you will need to apply first for a EU residence certificate which takes up to 6 months, if you want a visa that'll only take some weeks!

Mistrigri
Yes that's true they want Landlords to check for illegal immigrants, that'll probably involve having Bionic eyesight to check if their passports are genuine! Landlords are now immigration inspectors without getting paid!
So with this Brexit will EU citizens become illegal immigrants and landlords be put in jail? (Because I heard they would be in jail if they fail)

Missmachete
I was told over the phone that even if your child was born in the UK that doesn't mean they are British, it really depends on what passport the parent holds. That's the thing when you ring them up to ask questions it's complicated.
Say you want to get the EU residency certificate, you have to proove you're living here 5 years (send them a big parcel of bank statements, payslips, passports and everything!! Wait 6 months)
If you've been here longer than 5 years you still have to send them proof of child benefit you received from the beginning! If you still have it, because even if you have letters to proove, you still need to show on bank statements that money came in. Even if you've been paying tax for many many years, they don't ask for that! They want to know what benefits you have received, they don't want proof that you contributed, paid more tax.
It's like what's happening now with the referendum, they want people to vote without being informed what's going to happen, and if you search properly you may find that actually EU workers have paid more tax than received in benefits. The Non EU's now that's a different story!

In answer to the OP. No one really knows. But I'm sure there will be plenty of scaremongering by the Stay camp.
Pretty sure there will be no wholesale deportations if any. The UK can't stop people getting in as it is, let alone get rid of those already here.

I doubt there is much to worry about.

Lonelycher

Your posts are interesting but just to clarify, you say you have been paying tax since the 70s but it is too much trouble to wait six months to apply for citizenship?

Or have I misunderstood?

I think what lonelycher is saying is that an EU citizen first has to document their right to remain (ie prove 5 years' residence), then wait another year before applying for citizenship. During both application processes they are deprived of their passports and other important documents, possibly for many months.

An increase in the number of people applying will lengthen delays - I remember a few years ago when a Japanese friend was applying for the right to remain (married a British citizen) and she had to do without a passport for a couple of years.

This is one of the reasons I think there will be not a wholesale removal, but gradual attrition (both for EU citizens in the UK and Brits in the EU) - the hoops will be made deliberately onerous to jump through, and inadequate resources will mean long delays and errors. Remember the passport fiasco a couple of years back?

We're currently applying for DD's citizenship, a simplified process which takes a maximum of 6 months. We can't make progress with anyone else's claims until hers is finalised because the application requires original documents. At this rate the four of us (two of whom have access to a simplified naturalisation procedure) might have citizenship by 2020 ...

The other point lonelycher is making is how difficult to can be to get correct information and advice - and this is likely to get worse if recruitment is necessary to deal with a flood of additional applications - I think you can be confident that the people being recruited to deal with applications to remain won't be immigration lawyers ;)

This is not just a UK problem of course - we were recently given completely the wrong information about DD's citizenship application - we were sent to the wrong place, where civil servants gave us the wrong documents to complete, and redirected us to another office a 90 minute drive away. The correct office for dealing with DD's case (the equivalent of the county court) was across the road ...

And we are both fluent in the language of our host country, as is lonelycher.

Of course none of these issues are insurmountable. But they are of genuine concern to those of us exercising our european right of free movement, and may be used as a politically convenient way of influencing net migration figures.

I don't think brexit will stop immigration for 3 reasons

1. France will stop checking passports so people will come in rather than being in camps around Calais

2. Scotland will become independent so England will have a land border with the EU

3. Britain has a large coastline so people will be smuggled in

A long term economic disaster might deter immigrants but only if the EU is relatively successful and I think brexit will damage the EU too. However climate change is reducing places people can live so they will still find cooler Europe attractive

Has anyone actually specified what it is we are leaving?

Obviously it is in/out on the EU. But what about EEA/EFTA etc?

No one has a clue ItsAllGoing - or if they do, they're not saying.

On the one hand, admitting that remaining in EFTA/EEA is the goal would reassure a lot of fence sitters as it clearly reduces the economic and trade risk.

On the other hand, many people are voting out because of immigration, but remaining in the EEA/EFTA would almost certainly require a commitment to continued free movement of labour.

It's worth adding that this isn't a one-sided decision - the UK cannot unilaterally declare itself out of the EU but still part of the EEA/EFTA. Other EU countries would get a say and the UK would have to pay for membership. I think this would potentially be a deal breaker for the "sovereignty is everything" crowd, because it would mean paying our subs and complying with regulations without having any right to participate in the decision making process.

eyebrowse "1) France will stop checking passports so people will come in rather than being in camps around Calais"

interesting you say this because LBC have this item today. I am mystified why we can't just check the passports?!
www.lbc.co.uk/brexit-could-bring-calais-jungle-to-britain-126094

I don't really understand the "hassle to apply for citizenship" stuff - I know many people who have done it, some within my family.

France will stop checking passports so people will come in rather than being in camps around Calais"

This totally overlooks the fact that a migrant has to physically get carried to the UK by either ferry or train. They cannot just walk onto either of these.

To use the ferry, you need to show your passport, you need to buy a ticket, you need to have a boarding card and all are checked BEFORE you get on the boat.

Same with the train.

Are you really saying that the ferry and train companies will not seek to ensure that those using their transport services are entitled to do so. There are penalties for assisting a person not entitled to travel to the UK to do so. That's why our major airports are not overwhelmed by migrants who have no right to be in the Uk - because airlines must check the passengers right to come here before they carry them here - or face a penalty.

That existing system will just be applied to all ferries and trains between the UK and the coastal ports.

It's really not difficult.

We should also remember that the UK is building its own large container port - the London Gateway. It's a new deep-water port, which is able to handle the biggest container ships in the world, as well as one of Europe’s largest logistics parks, providing access by road and railways to London and the rest of Great Britain. So we won't have to import/export so much through Rotterdam in future.

France won't stop checking passports, as a PP said, they are no obliged to do so.

However, currently the UK also has border controls on French soil, and cooperates heavily with the French on the migrant situation. In the event of the UK leaving the EU the French may feel less inclined to host our border control, and to throw quite so much money at the issue.

It's a new deep-water port, which is able to handle the biggest container ships in the world, as well as one of Europe’s largest logistics parks, providing access by road and railways to London and the rest of Great Britain. So we won't have to import/export so much through Rotterdam in future.

That won't have any impact on the fact that the EU may impose tariffs on EU/UK import/exports.

France won't stop checking passports, as a PP said, they are no obliged to do so.

But neither are the carriers, the ferries, the airlines and the trains obliged to carry anyone who has no ticket nor anyone that the carriers have not satisfied themselves has a right to be in the UK.

It happens all the time - in airports throughout the world. Can't you see that's why the migrants have to travel overland - because the airlines won't carry them. The ferries and trains just need to introduce the same checks before allowing passengers to board.

It's crazy to say the UK has no way of stopping anyone who insists on coming here from physically doing so.

But neither are the carriers, the ferries, the airlines and the trains obliged to carry anyone who has no ticket nor anyone that the carriers have not satisfied themselves has a right to be in the UK.

why can't we check passports?

I think the issue is not going to be with people travelling with tickets, it'll be stowaways, hanging off the bottom of lorries etc. If less resources go into the policing on the French side, it is possible that more of the stowaways will make it.

MN have just given us a new topic for the EU Referendum 2016

It's under "Other Subjects" in the main list of topics.

Just thought I'd mention it in case anyone hadn't spotted it and might be interested

That won't have any impact on the fact that the EU may impose tariffs on EU/UK import/exports*

Iceland is not in the Eu - it pays no tariffs to trade with the EU.

Turkey is not in the EU - it pays no tariffs to trade with the EU.

Only Belarus pays tariffs to trade with the EU. Belarus is a small, poor dictatorship. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world.

We buy more from the EU that it buys from us - so if the EU insists on placing tariffs on trade with us they will be in breach of the Lisbon Treaty that prohibits the EU from treating a leaving country punitively.

However, if the EU insists on making is pay a tariff to trade with them, they we introduce reciprocal tariffs and that will raise us even ore money than we would pay in tariffs as they sell more to us than we buy from then, Mrs Merkel will then have to explain to Mercedes, VW, BMW etc what they cannot find a market for their goods in Britain because the tariffs the EU has set high tariffs that penalise German car exports.

Tariffs will not happen. Just Project Fear. Just Project Suicide if we stay in

why can't we check passports?
The French check passports of those leaving France.
The UK check passports of those arriving.

Currently this is done on the French side, it is possible that this arrange!ent may not continue and entry into the UK checks will instead be carried out in the UK.

Iceland and Turkey have negotiated an agreement with the EU. We would have to do the same, and there is no guarantee in the outcome of those negotiations.

We buy more from the EU that it buys from us

You have to remember the EU is much bigger than us. We import ~53% of our goods and services from the EU, this makes up about 16% of their exports. We stand to lose far more.

so if the EU insists on placing tariffs on trade with us they will be in breach of the Lisbon Treaty that prohibits the EU from treating a leaving country punitively.

Are you sure you mean the Lisbon treaty?