Brexit: what would happen to EU citizens living in UK?

[marghini]

I am a EU citizen and I have been living, working and paying taxes in the UK for a while.

I am really concerned about what would happen to the EU citizens who built a life for themselves and settled here in the UK in case of a Brexit.

Do you think all EU citizens already living in the UK would be pushed out? Or perhaps the government would just stop allowing further EU immigration?

not imposed by an unaccountable Brussels elite

This is the problem. Nothing is imposed by an unaccountable Brussels elite. There is a democratic deficit in the EU (but there is in the UK too - eg House of Lords, the proposition of seats in the Commons according to votes - compare UKIP and the SNP for example). People are incredibly badly informed. Nothing happens in the EU without the UK having an influence on it. That doesn't mean we always get what we want, but it is not "imposed". If more member states want something than not, it happens. In some areas there has to be unanimity, but not in many any more since the EU expanded. There is a European parliament and it does not sit in Brussels.

And many of our social rights come from the EU, the Tories only want us to leave so they can put the plebs back where they belong.

The EU is not perfect. But I am very scared of living in a Tory-dominated England that is outside the EU (Scotland and Wales will leave the UK and stay in the EU if there is an "out" vote.) I just hope there will be a transition period and I can claim asylum in Germany!

I have been thinking about getting the british citizenship too.
But then that would be only because i'm forced to do because tbh I don'y want to. And I don't want to because I don't feel English/British. Even afdter 20 years here.

I'm not sure how much good it will for the UK to push people to get a citizenship they don't really want.

marghini I can understand your concern (as I'm in the opposite situation - UK citizen taking advantage of EU freedom of movement to work abroad).

No one knows what will happen because the government has not spelled out what their policy would be in the event of a brexit. (I don't understand how people can vote to leave Europe without having some idea what will come afterwards.)

It's all very well to assume that a brexit won't affect our right to remain and work in our adopted countries, and it is probably a fair assumption - but there are no guarantees. I do wonder what might happen if it all turns ugly and there is a "tit for tat" situation which results in (say) British pensioners being expelled from Spain because they are a drain on local health services, with working Spaniards in the UK being kicked out in retaliation.

We're now working on getting citizenship - kids first because it's easier for them (born locally) then DH and I.

I doubt homeowners or those in work will be kicked out.

I am unsure about the consequences of leaving the EU for unemployed, sick and disabled though.

if all the people like myself (and there are a lot more than you'd think) decided to fuck off back "home" (with our tax dollars) what would happen ?

I think, thankfully, business is on our side.

It's in nobodies interest for a mass of people to fuck off back home. It's not in the interest for individuals to have to start back home from scratch (start a business or find a job), and it's not in the interest of business to have a sudden vacuum of skills and employees to replace.

If I had to guess both groups (EU people here and Brits abroad) will get some kind of grandfather deal and be able to get citizenship in the host countries.

I am in an odd but similar position. I am eligible for British citizenship but haven't done it due to cost (about 1000 pounds). That cost may go up in the likely scenario where I will be allowed to get it after a Brexit, but it may go down.

Vertigo I doubt it too, but if I were in the OP's situation and earned less than £35k I'd still have a nagging doubt.

For those of us in the opposite position (ie British citizens living in Europe) I'd assume that existing EU rules (under which you have a permanent right to remain after 5 years' regular residence) will continue to apply to migrants like my DH and me. Still going to apply for citizenship, just in case ...

"Doubt", "guess" and "assume" are not reassuring words if you are in the OP's position. It would be helpful if the government were to offer some clarity.

So do you say that you think all the other EU contries will carry on been happy to have UK citizens living there but it's OK for any EU citizens to be send back home, regardless of how long they've lived in the UK, whether they are married etc????

I personally would hope that if the UK was to be as stupid as using the same rules than the ones he wants to use with non EU citizens to EU citizens, then the EU countries will just do the same to the UK citizens in their country tbh.

Of course, you would hope this is not going to happen as this would be an issue for all concerned parties (The UK would also need to deal with a massive influx of his own citizens going back to the UK with no home, wage etc...).
But I'm that some people think they wiill be able to stay happily in the EU whilst EU citizens will have to struggle to saty in the UK (even if they have been there 20 years, are married etc etc)

woodheaven of course I don't think that's OK! I think the whole thing is ridiculous. But like you, I don't get to vote on it.

The difference in my view is that EU countries will continue to be subject to local and EU law that is already established, whereas EU citizens in the UK will be subject to new immigration regulations the detail of which is not yet known.

Based on existing French law, my right to remain is secure, although I would most likely require a visa (or naturalisation). For an EU citizen in the UK who does not yet have a permanent right to reside, the situation could be more difficult, especially for those who do not meet the £35k threshold for non-EU citizens to be granted the right to remain in the UK.

Of course all this speculation, because the Brexit bunch have absolutely no intention of spelling anything out or answering any difficult questions - and nor does the government.

It was a reason for me to apply for citizenship. Didn't want to risk any problems in case of a Brexit ( and generally got scared by all the anti immigrant rules put in place) , plus wanted to be able to vote in the referendum.

Nobody knows what they're going to do with existing EU residents, but I would take action to protect myself now rather than just hoping it'll be alright.

well apparently there is geneva convention ruling or some human rights ruling somewhere that would protect anyone already living in uk and in eu.

I mean what do people would think happen?

The Geneva conventions are rules applying to armed conflict. They've got fuck all to do with this. The last thing people should do where immigration is concerned is assume.

I agree widow, we would be in uncharted territory and european migrants affected by the referendum shouldn't assume anything.

I consider the risk to my family to be small (we've been here nearly 20 years, work full-time and have teenagers born and educated here) but I'm still concerned - if only because I remember Europe before full freedom of movement, and the hassle of getting paperwork in order. Back in 2000, I had to marry my British partner to give him the right to stay in France, as he didn't qualify for a residence permit.

We're going the citizenship route - hope to get dual nationality for both children before the referendum.

hi I'm an EU citizen that decided to make UK for my family of 4, our new home home. Having been tired of a previous nation where corruption and lack of human rights dominated, I decided to take my wife and two very young girls to a country that I always admired and aspired. Sold everything I had therefore burning all possible bridges with the past, We started leaving the dream of a better life for hard working people like me and my wife, a bit more than a year ago. And now the threat of UK leaving the EU, shuffled our lives once again. I'm in full time permanent employment in a very respected company in Bristol and just finishing the process of getting a UK driving licence our girls already call this nation their home. Should we fear to be left with nowhere to go? As we practically spent everything we had in stabilizing ourselves in the UK, and having arrived a year ago, what are our direct risks in regards of immigration, employment, health care, early education?

An awful lot of scaremongering. I don't think anybody, even UKIP are suggesting that EU residents would be deported. There seems to be a general consensus that only future migration would be limited rather than anything applied retrospectively.

I also think the idea that the financial sector would move from the welcoming, accommodating UK to an EU which has been traditionally hostile is laughable.

This is the problem. Nothing is imposed by an unaccountable Brussels elite.

If you cannot be voted out at the next election, you are unaccountable. Tell me, how can the British public vote out the EC?

There is a democratic deficit in the EU (but there is in the UK too - eg House of Lords, the proposition of seats in the Commons according to votes - compare UKIP and the SNP for example).

This is a very poor comparison. The House of Lords cannot legislate without the consent of the House of Commons, nor can it prevent a House of Commons bill from being enacted. As for the proportion of seats, the HoC system is that each locality has a representative, elected by that locality. It is more democratic than voting for a faceless organisation, as happens with European Parliament elections.

People are incredibly badly informed. Nothing happens in the EU without the UK having an influence on it. That doesn't mean we always get what we want, but it is not "imposed". If more member states want something than not, it happens.

I believe JS Mill called it "the tyranny of the majority". It is absolutely imposed.

In some areas there has to be unanimity, but not in many any more since the EU expanded. There is a European parliament and it does not sit in Brussels.

It is an expensive joke.

And many of our social rights come from the EU, the Tories only want us to leave so they can put the plebs back where they belong.

Actually, British lawyers were instrumental in establishing human rights. Furthermore, Brexit supporters are far from all being Tories. I'm not a Tory.

The EU is not perfect. But I am very scared of living in a Tory-dominated England that is outside the EU (Scotland and Wales will leave the UK and stay in the EU if there is an "out" vote.)

I suspect Scotland is quite likely to secede from the UK regardless of the outcome of this referendum.

I just hope there will be a transition period and I can claim asylum in Germany!

Cheerio then.

We are talking about all getting dual citizenship, just in case. DH would apply for British and myself and DS for DH's home country. If nothing else t will speed up going to and fro and if worse happens it might help too.

I don't think they will chuck people out but it may get harder to remain and terms will be different going forward. I don't think Brits in EU countries will get immediately booted out either. The pensioners in Spain tend to be wealthy ones and spend quite a bit there so contribute as well as take, and as someone mentioned up thread many come back to access healthcare even though they don't always strictly qualify anymore. I know some Poles and EE that are already returning but mainly for quality of life reasons, but not all will and many are already taking citizenship, especially if they have children.

Do ai believe the No camp will get it? I don't think so, but it will be close.

The fact that the Brexit crowd are so close-lipped on what exactly would happen afterwards suggests to me that they expect it would lose votes.

Just as a point of information - the health cover of UK state pensioners in Europe is paid by the S1 form. This is issued in Newcastle and allows the host nation to reclaim costs. The UK remains our "competent state".
No idea how this would change.

The fact that the Brexit crowd are so close-lipped on what exactly would happen afterwards suggests to me that they expect it would lose votes.

Yes. This. The kippers and other committed eurosceptics aren't going to vote for EEA membership, whereas many less committed "out" voters may believe that we can just "become a Norway".

Make your plans clear and you risk losing one of these groups.

Anyway we were talking about this in my French group yesterday and most people think that they will be allowed to stay but will face significant additional bureaucracy. I'm a bit less sanguine than many, because my (British) DH was refused a French resident's card in 1998/99, even though he was probably legally entitled to one ... I suspect that in many European countries even if British expats were theoretically entitled to remain, the host country would do their best to get rid of any who are not in decently-paid employment and contributing to the system. I think this is particularly true in Spain and France.

British citizens who have left the UK and have been resident elsewhere in the EU for more than 15 years will not even be able to vote in this. I would imagine that the vast majority of these would be voting to remain. www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/11633091/Expat-vote-ban-lifted-but-not-in-time-for-EU-referendum.html

^What will happen to Brit citizens living in EU?

We took the precaution of gaining nationality in the EU country where we've lived for the last 25-plus years. It was by no means the only reason for doing so, but it was certainly there at the back of my mind that I didn't want to lose the benefits (not talking about social welfare, but eg voting in European elections and local elections, plus facing less bureaucracy) enjoyed by EU citizens across the union. And there was also the thought that in the case of a 'yes' vote for Brexit there will undoubtedly be a rush of citizenship applications from desperate Brits and the process will take even longer than it does now.

British citizens who have left the UK and have been resident elsewhere in the EU for more than 15 years will not even be able to vote in this.
And that WAS one of the reasons for us to take on a second nationality, because I was disenfranchised from the UK over a decade ago. In a democracy I believe in the right to vote, so the only way I could do this at a national level was by becoming of a citizen of the country where I live.

It's all scaremongering.
Nobody is going to be kicked out of a job and deported! Truth is, we don't know, as rules and regulations haven't been dreamt up yet. How do countries outside the EU cope? Visas, box ticking and security checks presumably. If you are of value to a country, through a job/skills or have a pocket full of hard cash to invest, you will have no problem at all. Hanger-on with nothing to offer? - if you're already here I can't see anybody including UKIP telling you to pack your bags.
Similarly what would happen if we stay in, and are still in the club when the EU implodes when Greece/Italy/Portugal/Spain finally default - and they will - and the banking system collapses? Nobody has the money to bail 'em out again - we're all still in the hole from 2008.
We don't know what will happen in that scenario either.
Politics of fear.

arch I'm not desperately bothered about not voting here (mainly because it would be a real struggle to vote for either main party) but I'm bothered about being disenfranchised in this election.

We're getting nationality now but because of the need to supply original documents for each application, we can only do one at a time ... We are getting the kids sorted out first, because the process is simpler for them, and because I am concerned that unless they have EU citizenship, access to higher education elsewhere in Europe may become an issue. While I am confident that they would retain the right to live and study in France, I'm curious as to whether a post-Brexit UK citizen living in France would retain the right to go and study in Spain or the Netherlands, for example, as an EU student.

What will happen to Brit citizens living in EU?

The same as will happen to any EU citizens living in Britain after we've left the EU -

   ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Everyone is allowed to carry on living in the country they are currently living and working in.

This is because under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court no country is permitted to single out and expel any particular section of its population. To attempt to do so would be considered 'a crime against humanity'. No EU country or Britain would ever attempt to breach their obligations under that law and be deemed guilt of a 'crime against humanity'.

After Britain has left the EU it is free to invite whoever it wants to come and live in Britain, from all over the world, and the EU countries are free to invite anyone they want to come and live in their countries.

In short, we regain control of our borders and no longer have to accept mass migration into Britain by migrants from other EU countries that we cannot prevent coming to live and work in the UK while we reamin IN the EU.

springing while I am confident that no one who can prove existing residency rights will be expelled (unless they commit a criminal offence), countries especially those with social insurance systems could make life difficult and expensive for some residents, and there would certainly be existing bureaucratic hoops to jump through - residents cards, visas etc.

I've been abroad long enough to remember the days before full free movement, when British citizens living in France had to prove they were self-supporting before they were granted a resident's card (and even those who were self-supporting weren't guaranteed one, at least without a legal fight).

So, springing tell us, how long have you lived abroad? And what experience do you have personally of the registration of non-EU immigrants in european countries? Among my British acquaintances, those who are French civil servants are among the most concerned (and now in a big rush to get naturalised).

Our rights to move elsewhere in the EU are also likely to be curtailed - while we may retain the right to remain in our host country, our rights to move elsewhere in the EU to work and study may well be restricted.