Mass sexual assaults in Cologne and other European cities part IV

[VertigoNun]

The reports of attacks on Women in NYE, are in their hundreds.

That's why the wanted Women to STFU, they can't cope with violence Men.

Theydon't but surely a distinction would need to be made between Islam and extremist ideology, they are two very different things? Thread has mostly concentrated on generalisations, rather than pinning down the extremist thinking. When posters state that 'People need to know the truth about Islam', that is not tarring all followers of Islam with the same brush? Also, it seems to me that fundamentalism also has much to do with traditions and practices of particular localities, rather than in Islam itself.

'But if you were to ask the people who perpetrate hideous crimes such as gunning down abortion clinics, bombing civilians etc they would attribute it to their religious convictions'.

They would claim that, but the crime would arise because of numerous factors within the individual and would not have much at all to do with the religion itself. The Yorkshire Ripper claimed 'God' told him to kill prostitutes. Is it therefore evident that some sort of extremist brand of Christianity led him to murder?

And if you asked those right wing fascists who attacked those poor girls on NYE why they thought it was OK to do what they did then I bet their reasoning would point to what they consider to be rooted in their religion.

I think what happened to the girls needs a much more complex discussion of what leads men to behave in this way. Religion and culture as the defining factors don't cut it for me. Why they felt the sheer brass necked brazen entitlement to do so. There ARE other factors

Men are more likely to committ sexual violence in communities where sexual violence goes unpunished. Lack of sanctions for abuse, how do they affect the likelihood of sexual violence?

There is no 'typical profile' of a sex attacker.

Socialization, criminality, also play a role. Hostile 'masculinity' can be said to play a huge part but where does it arise from? Within this hostility in the individual lie issues of power and aggression. Why does this behaviour sometimes arise from an all male pack? Why is there the support of theirpeers for this behaviour? Why do they lack any shred of empathy? Are the answers to this 'culture'? 'Religion?' I think it is much more complex.

Sorry -huge post - been trying to catch up with this thread ...so many things...
But first vertigo - I'm pretty sure (memory hazy) but at least in his younger years Plato thought women and men had equal value - could both be 'leaders' and it was 'wisdom'. Even in his later years he said something like society not educating women was the equivalent to a fighter only training with one arm. He did give women a much higher value than your post implies.

Mhari Black - knew that would a waste of time - I knew and agree it would be straight from SNP HQ. (And if Scotland was to survive as an independent nation we need immigration - more workers to pay tax...and also more people who would be grateful and vote in favour -thankful to the kind SNP who invited them to come and finally they need to be part of the EU - independent they will not have guaranteed membership anyway but if Britain remains in the EU it will strengthen their case -but they also need to keep on the right side of Germany/the EU...)

ID cards - pointless - I said I knew people who worked on fake ID (pre 9/11) -even I could have easily got hold of a fake passport for less than £200... lots of these people used fake EU ID cards - easier to fake than passports - and actually British passports weren't as desirable as other EU ones - easier to spot UK fakes as you are used to seeing them (not only by employers - these people had real NI numbers and opened bank accounts using them) and how do you explain away someone born in the UK but with an obviously foreign accent and poor understanding of English? ID cards are not the way to go.

Religious texts (Torah, Bible, Koran) were all written a long time ago and scholars argue about the interpretation of certain aspects....eg as I said earlier I am pretty sure in the Koran it just says that both sexes should be modestly dressed ... nothing about women covered from head to toe in sacks -that is misogynistic cultural and historical interpretation.

I think we really do need to fight for women -our basic rights that we have fought hard for. Our society is far from perfect but there are ones that are a hell of a lot worse -and we can't help those women if we lose our rights

Talking about education ...I think you do need to do a basic education - a 'this is what our expectations are' in this society women are completely equal to men and have the same rights, about sexually freedom and assault - rape and then zero tolerance - there are no excuses and I do mean zero.
Whether that means we need larger prisons or detention centres or we just send people back to certain countries.

And that applies to anyone already living in this country -forget respecting cultures and beliefs - no Sharia law, no turning a blind eye - zero tolerance to the treatment of women as lesser beings.
(And before anyone makes that into a racist statement I would say the same for the 'Christians' in the US who say that it is acceptable for a man to beat (sorry discipline) his wife or those which allow polygamy etc. I also have issues with the driving ban for women in the orthodox Jewish school).
These are the laws of this land - full stop. You don't like it? Tough - don't live here then. The rights of 50% of the population are more important than anything.
(I personally find the burka/nijab (not hijab - although that also isn't degreed in the Koran) irritate me - because although I know not all women in the UK are forced to wear them, some choose to - I see them as a reminder of the oppression of women in some states where they ARE forced to. I see them and it makes me angry - and I feel like the women wearing them are letting the rest of womankind down. I would ban the wearing of them in public - but then I know that is dodgy as women should be free to wear what they like ...)

And I would ban postal votes except in specific verified circumstances - so that women can vote for who they want - anonymously -not have their male keeper (or the Imam) using their vote for them -which does happen in certain communities in the UK.

I haven't spoke to my outspoken opinionated teen DD about this yet - I will and see what she says. And the fear of being racist thing ...both my DDs (14 and 8) have said things like 'you can't say that - it's racist' over things that really aren't...the youngest especially really doesn't understand what it means -just it is bad to be one and you can't say anything about people with different colour skin.

(eg talking about a photo of a black woman with really vivid green eyes - I said I thought they were contacts or maybe photoshopped as they were so bright fake green ...I said some black people do have blue and green eyes but most have brown ...that was racist apparently...)
(My DDs are both mixed race (arab/white) -but not really obviously so - and have never - afaik -experienced racism.)

I also didn't sign Trump petition because I believe fervently in the right to free speech.

Being PC is now so inculcated - and it happened in a matter of three decades - that I fear there is no critical thinking in the young. Three decades? Ha? In 1930s Germany it happened in a few years. Very few young Germans did not succumb to indoctrination.

Apologies if this has been posted before: interesting article on Politico about the effect of the imbalance in favour of men in the migrants and refugees currently coming to Europe.

Why can't men disagree without smashing the hell out of each other

Because those of us who don't smash things just get smashed ourselves. Then once we're pummeled into invisibility we get to enjoy comments like yours.

Istanbul: The terrorist targeted a german tourist group. He joined the group and killed them.

I've been thinking about the posts considering whether there is some sort of conspiracy. I don't think so. What I think is happening is globslisation

Globalisation offers opportunities but also risks. Big Businesses and corporates in the developed West saw the opportunities: cheap labour and new markets. Meanwhile the common citizen in the West bore the risks: stagnating wages, over crowding, a dilution of social cohesion.

The more organised powerful group was able to take advantage, have their way and then entrench their position further by making it unacceptable for the common people to object in any meaningful way.

(The winners and losers in the developing world look different.)

Of course Mephis, it's the extremes of masculinity, of religion, the extremes of anything that get the attention because they cause the most trouble.

And I don't "enjoy" saying it, pointing out the gender imbalance but it's so stark one has to ask why.

Pink. Sorry to hear this news from Istanbul. Too much horror in the world.

Emily: "And if you asked those right wing fascists who attacked those poor girls on NYE why they thought it was OK to do what they did then I bet their reasoning would point to what they consider to be rooted in their religion.
I think what happened to the girls needs a much more complex discussion of what leads men to behave in this way."

I love the inclusion of the word "poor" in your post - you really come across as (in)sincere.

Then let's hear your take on why Arab-speaking ME-NA men sexually attacked and raped the women. They are afterall from the same region of the world as you, so come on ... we would love to hear why the recently-arrived and not so recent (i) conducted themselves in this way, and (ii) felt they could in a modern European country.

"Religion and culture as the defining factors don't cut it for me"

Emily of course not but you don't seem to think they count at all.

Yes 2016, spot on, will be worse with TTIP and possibly China, moving into Western economies, feted by Mr Cameron and co, to whom human rights and dissent are strangers. Planning permission, environmental issues, free speech, free expression, the natural world all to be sacrificed at the alter of continual economic growth which seems increasingly to benefit the already fabulously wealthy.
So what if the water is polluted, just buy it from the shop, same with air, just buy bottled air from Canada.
Mind you, China is closing some coal mines, fair play there.

MamaMary: "In 1930s Germany it happened in a few years"

I personally became aware of PC thinking - people fearful even to THINK un-PC thoughts (how sick is that?) around 1990. But it was probably bubbling away before then unbeknownst to me.

HelpThe please don't mix my words with Emily's. That would horrify me

Yes Emily why do you think it happened?

To be fair Emily throws up such a lot of flak it can be distracting.

When you remove religion and culture (pretty much the same thing), in fact when you remove socialisation, all you have left is biology.

So there you have it. Fresh. Men attack because they can't help themselves. Nothing anyone anywhere can do.

And then of course, women just have to put up with that too, rather than anyone face the fact that masculinity is toxic to women and try to address it.

Also had no reply from MP. I'm very disappointed about that, depressed in general. I wish I hadn't had kids. Funny thing is I always said I wouldn't because the world is a shit place, but biology got to me.

unlucky83 "feel like the women wearing them are letting the rest of womankind down. I would ban the wearing of them in public - but then I know that is dodgy as women should be free to wear what they like ...)"

I remember on Loose Women last year the only sole voice of reason was Janet Street-Porter - the other girlies felt they were being right-on by saying women should be free to wear what they want, because that's what we have been demanding all the time. Janet said No, because what is the burka trying to convey to the rest of us? That was my opinion anyway, but the others parroted the Left view.

Wearing a burka in a modern European country is an insult to all women and their ancestors who fought to get a vote, fought to get a mortgage without a man's guarantee, fought to be on the board, lesbians who fought for AI, etc etc. I personally choose not to converse with anyone who comes up to me in the street in a full burka because it is impolite to me. I am expected to communication with a pair of eyes, but she can see my whole face. What is a British-born muslim girl conveying when she dons a burka, when even her own mother never wore it???

"Socialization, criminality, also play a role. Hostile 'masculinity' can be said to play a huge part but where does it arise from? Within this hostility in the individual lie issues of power and aggression. Why does this behaviour sometimes arise from an all male pack? Why is there the support of theirpeers for this behaviour? Why do they lack any shred of empathy? Are the answers to this 'culture'? 'Religion?' I think it is much more complex."

Of course the answers are culture, religion and socialisation.

Hostile masculinity is enabled where men don't learn to see women as equals and where their alleged superiority is enshrined in codes of conduct and the law.

The posts to page are interesting m.facebook.com/profile.php?v=timeline&filter=2&id=1567955710156124

Good for Janet Street-Porter. The wearing of the burka, and similar coverings, is a political issue and it can't simply be left at 'let them wear what they like'. That's far too simplistic and naive.

The wearing of headscarves has been a political issue in Turkey for 90 years.

Help, my OH finds the burka offensive to him as a man, obvs, it says to him that he is so base and so out of control of his own instincts that women have to wear such garb. That all men are rapists. Not explaining it very well.
I find it a barrier and feel alienated by it. It's not empowering, just as getting your kit off for a lads mag so it can shift more copies isn't.

Woman flees attempted gang rape on Paris train

Awful.

This is a frightening sentence from the article above:

The move came shortly after France's High Council on equality (HCEfh) raised the alarm about the issue, when its survey of 600 women in Seine-Saint-Denis and Essonne, two areas in the outer suburbs of Paris, revealed shocking responses.

It found that 100 percent of the women said they had experienced at least some form of gender-based sexual harassment in their life while riding the train.