Mass sexual assaults in Cologne and other European cities part IV

[VertigoNun]

The reports of attacks on Women in NYE, are in their hundreds.

Polenta he married her when she was 6 and consummated the marriage at 9. Maybe that was the norm then and probably still is in some parts of the world

I don't know Carla...I don't like to offend, we are part of a lovely CoE community, I relate to the vicar, I like various aspects of worship and a lot of the work they do for the community but I believe it's ok to criticise religion. Why ever not? Everything can be criticised and nothing should be off topic. It depends a lot on how you do it and in what context (i.e. not offend the individual?). Religion is important to many, the safety and wellbeing of women should matter to all decent human beings. Some cultures and religions enable the ill-treatment of women. Why should this not be pointed out?

The thing is Ego, as bad as I know it is for some Muslim women, all women aren't abused and not all men abuse. It's the extreme wing, the Salafis that are those who have a literal translation of the Koran. Saudi Arabia has done much to promote this type of Islam to different countries but not all Muslims are Salafis by any means.

I mentioned before that I worked in the ME for some years and I knew many education, liberal and highly interesting Muslims, both men and women (many of them couples) where there was no oppression of the women. I was surprise often about how politically informed many of the women were and would have the that 'playful' arguing type of relationship where you know that there is equality in the relationship. Having said all that, the people I knew all tended to be professionals who I met through work, so educated and largely middle class

Other than the fundamentalists, those likely to be 'macho' in their style would be the very poor and it's not uncommon that women get the shit deal in extreme poverty.

Of course criticism of religion is fine, and interesting. But not ill-informed (some back up the thread saying they found the early part of the Old Testament boring, so gave up on it, but now obviously feel the know all about it) sweeping generalisations.
Yes, you can have fun cherry picking all religious books to find offensive material, but don't you think this thread has reached a dead-end when many of the posts are doing this?

"I mentioned before that I worked in the ME for some years and I knew many education, liberal and highly interesting Muslims, both men and women (many of them couples) where there was no oppression of the women. I was surprise often about how politically informed many of the women were and would have the that 'playful' arguing type of relationship where you know that there is equality in the relationship. Having said all that, the people I knew all tended to be professionals who I met through work, so educated and largely middle class'

That is also my experience Polenta but the educated classes are gradually silenced all over, think Turkey. I think the people you are talking about grew up in a different era. It is all much more conservative now, in part due to SA and probably in part due to the instability of the region.

"but don't you think this thread has reached a dead-end when many of the posts are doing this?"

I think it was a late night, letting off some of the tension that has built up over the last few days... happy to move on

Amen!

haha Carla

Also checking in before I head to work.

Mistress, your idea of a 101 class is wonderful and generous. I believe that those who have knowledge (and mine is nothing compared to the sharp, scholarly arguments you make) of the religious arguments used to suppress women and others, are best placed to help remove the mystique.

Politicians' trite dismissal of legitimate concerns needs to stop.

I'm also interested in your ideas for reform and enlightenment. I think it's a fascinating and hopeful concept.

Polenta, I was concerned by this from that great article you found. Hope you aren't too wiped today!

Germany this week finalized a deal with Facebook, Google, and Twitter to censor German "hate speech" about migrants and refugees on social media — though it's not clear at all where the line lies

Sweden has already done similar.

Why?

I am going to rewatch The Lives of Others which took place during my lifetime and reminds me how fragile are our rights to freedom of speech.

oh and excuse bad spelling of last few posts....

I feel very uncomfortable with people wildly criticicizing others' religion. I think it is crass to start wholesale criticism of particular religions and people
You haven't got the first clue about this problem if you cannot see why this is SO SO necessary.

IMO the problem is how certain cultures use religion
They use the religion in the way it was mandated. It's the religion that plays a huge part in shaping these cultures and bloody hard to change attitudes when specific ideas and laws are divinely proscribed.

Both the Bible and Koran were written at a time when certain attitudes, now strange to us, were the norm But Islam is for all time, unchanging and perfect, the Quran being the unchanged word of Allah and all that and Muhammed being the most perfect man who ever lived and who's behaviour should be emulated.

What is remarkable about them is how much in them is totally relevent today, and provides inspiration and comfort to many good people And also inspiration for all the misogony, violence and hatred of others.

I don't want to derail this thread yet again, so I will stop posting any further, but your comments have confirmed once again how important it is that those of us who actually know Islam really need to get the truth out there.

Yes, let's move on. The day's first scan over the papers shows that this morning's news is not great:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3394896/Merkel-admits-Europe-lost-control-refugee-crisis.html

I have no idea what we are going to do. Cameron is silent, everyone is silent, no-one has any ideas.

I don't know if others feel like this but, over the past year or so, I increasingly crave information. I want to know what's going on, why are things covered up, why the extreme slants in reporting, whether anyone has any idea as to how to stop the seemingly impending civil unrest.

The Syrians that I knew in particular, were extremely well educated and very politically aware. Likewise the Lebanese and the other Levant countries, which I guess is not surprising, given their history. The were more than willing to discuss religion both in a practical and philosophical sense and politics generally. I love politics and my DH is a serious history buff so we def enjoyed this sort of chat.

But I was very aware of the staring in the souk areas and tbh was never there without DH, but still wary. I was very conscious that I was somewhere quite 'different' in those situations and avoided as much as I could. I could certainly see how a situation like Tahir Sq could arise. Anyway, it's complex of course and I do feel for the refugees whose chances of a safer life might be scuppered because of the shit element of some of the cultures.

That said, I am of course spitting mad that my freedoms and those of all women might be lost due to extremist and misogynist elements and I'm not having it. But it's certainly not all like that.

Look at the nutter fundamentalists in the US re abortion etc. Currently no US president would get elected if they were atheist. I mean, that is seriously screwed. There are extremist elements on all sides

The fact that Ralf Jaeger a German government minister said far right internet chat rooms are as bad as the real world breakdown of law in Cologne astounds me.

Policing the internet becomes on a par with policing the streets? Something is amiss there.

X-post Mia.

Please come back whenever you want to contribute.

In a long time posting here, I have always looked to your posts for intelligent truthful critique of a subject in which your empirical experience gives you both authority and wisdom.

Your contributions are invaluable, particularly in an era where groupthink demands trotting out platitudes about social and religious issues.

Read what Mia writes: we need to be much more sophisticated in our thinking and not be afraid to question. Don't just drink the Kool Aid.

Yes I agree with Olive, Mia, your posts are extremely interesting and we all learn from your knowledge, so please keep posting

There are terrible things done in the name of all religions, but it only changes when a light is shone on it by the authorities. When the state is in thrall to priests and holy men abuses continue, as we saw in the Catholic church for decades. If nobody is willing to challenge inhuman and objectionable practice's for fear of offending a culture it will never change. Why should it?

Good article

www.independent.co.uk/voices/in-light-of-the-cologne-attacks-we-need-to-face-facts-not-all-refugees-are-saints-a6806491.html

Likewise, I also would like to ask Mia to comment on the thread as she thinks fit and not stay away.

I don't think there is any deep-laid plot. It's just that government policy and 'the official mind' are a bit like an oil tanker: they take a bloody long time to really change direction.

I've really enjoyed this thread, and thank everybody for raising my awareness of these issues. But I'm off now, as I think it's done.
I am worried about the media treatment of the issues covered earlier in the thread, and about the events themselves. I hate the left-wing attitude (embodied in the Guardian and BBC) that you can't disagree with them without being racist and right wing.
Now the thread is generally peopled by those who are arrogant enough to know what's best spiritually for millions of people and make sweeping allegations about faiths that have sustained them. What are you all wanting, a 1984-style Group Hate against Islam, or Christianity? Well, that's going to be REALLY useful in healing social tensions, isn't it?
And I thought Emily Bohemia was diverting the thread!

Work beckons so I have to go anyway, but just to clarify, for the purpose of not derailing I'll reserve my criticisms of Islam for another thread on another day.

It got silly last night, sorry.

Mass surveillance for Germany back on. I guess Angela Merkel has forgiven the NSA for spying on her phone calls.
.
securityaffairs.co/wordpress/43477/intelligence/bnd-works-nsa-again.html

Is that directed at me Carla?

Great article linked by pp from the Independent, I agree with every word if it. Unfortunately it wasn't very well articulated and contained grammatical errors so I don't feel I can share it on FB.

We need deep, flawlessly produced articles or we'll just have pedants sneering.