Quick Poll: EU stay or leave?

[BlueSmarties76]

Would you vote to stay or leave the EU?

Quick poll.

We have a housing crisis.

which is 100% our making. We have ridiculous planning rules, protection for rather ugly parts of the green belt, and outrageous protection for near or outright derelict buildings. Coupled with low interest rates which has made a lot of property in London unoccupied by their foreign owners, it is a complete disaster. The labour and conservative governments have known we have been well short of targets for years, and both have come up with comical plans. The system has been shown to be entirely fragile in the face of rather modest population growth (300k is not, by any means, the highest in the world).

I think an out vote will mean we get to keep whatever jobs haven't left for the British. And our unemployed (the mobile ones at least) won't be able to move to europe.

chilli how many Brits do you know that have moved to Europe for jobs? I know more people who've moved to the USA or Australia that to Europe - testament to how shit Brits generally are at learning other languages.

WRT housing I agree that massive under-investment for decades has led us to the grim situation we're in now. However, 300k people per year moving to a small island like ours is fucking huge! Of course our population growth isn't on a par with the USA or China or India, but we're a much smaller country with a much smaller population. 300k per year for the foreseeable future will be a total disaster. We're already struggling with our infrastructure now. Perhaps you don't live in the crowded south east, like I do, but I can assure you that I find it very noticeable how much more crowded everything is now compared to 10 or 20 years ago. Its getting so that any kind of car journey or day out has to be planned to avoid the worst traffic, queues, etc. And I'm not one of the poor sods who can't find housing in the area they've always lived in, or a school within a 5-mile radius. Long live the green belt around London!

Instead of the UK paying a subscription fee to the EU the EU should be paying the UK in order to provide houses, schools, hospitals for all these new people. Its simple populations influx problems that you are taught about in Geography GCSE.

A yearly population Growth of 300,000 means building a city the size of Leicester every single year, so homes, schools, hospitals, roads, sewers, council services, public transport. So those who want free movement and unlimited immigration are telling me these 300,000 extra people will be paying enough taxes to build a Leicester every year forevermore?

Again those against controlled immigration and for free movement. When do we say we are full or as long as everyone has a space to stand on this island we should just keep letting everyone in regardless?

I don't buy this idea that Britain can't stand alone without Europe. We did more than alright when we refused to join the Euro and also during the Second World War. The EU does not work for Britain anymore and we should get out ASAP

how many Brits do you know that have moved to Europe for jobs? I know more people who've moved to the USA or Australia that to Europe - testament to how shit Brits generally are at learning other languages.

who cares how many I or you personally know?

However, 300k people per year moving to a small island like ours is fucking huge! Of course our population growth isn't on a par with the USA or China or India, but we're a much smaller country with a much smaller population.

Most of this island is not built on. There is plenty of space. The trouble is that building adequate housing is not in the interest of a lot of powerful people.

Perhaps you don't live in the crowded south east, like I do, but I can assure you that I find it very noticeable how much more crowded everything is now compared to 10 or 20 years ago.

I live in zone 2. plenty of people here.

Long live the green belt around London!

and... there's the problem. Right there. You do indeed sound like someone who has housing. It's estimated a very small percentage of the green belt will alleviate our problems, as will scrapping a lot of planning rules.

My issue isn't with having control over the borders. it's that shackling workers while allowing companies to move can only hurt one group - the workers.

The EU project will fall apart if the UK leave. Most EU countries have anti-Euro austerity political parties making inroads in popularity in their respective countries.

Growth of 300,000 means building a city the size of Leicester every single year, so homes, schools, hospitals, roads, sewers, council services, public transport.

Yeah, it's reasonable to take the absolute highest number of migrants we have ever had and pretend that's the new norm.

When do we say we are full or as long as everyone has a space to stand on this island we should just keep letting everyone in regardless?

The country is about 10% built on. How about we sound the alarm when it's at 20%? or 25%? have you taken the train from zone 1 to anywhere outside of London? space, as far as the eye can see.

We could, of course, also be a little bit smarter about building and still contain sprawl. Lots of London has disused buildings, which could support a massive amount of housing.

Unsure

Its not about land space though its about who is going to pay for all these homes, hospitals, schools, infrastructure chili? This country by no means has a bottomless pit of money.

There have been various stories in the press today regarding comments by Ed Balls, who was a senior Labour advisor when Britain decided not to impose border controls on countries joining the EU in 2004.

This is an excerpt from one of them:

Mr Balls, who was the highest profile casualty of Labour's disastrous 2015 election campaign, has acknowledged Labour made serious mistakes in the middle of the last decade in its assessments of migration.

^He said last month: 'When it came to the expansion of the European Union in 2004, we didn't see the extent to which low-wage people would move.
'Fundamentally, we didn't think they would.'^

So there we have it, when Labour took the rash decision to just 'let them come' they had no idea how many people would pitch up here. They thought our infrastructure could cope. They didn't realise that by opening the border of one of the countries in the world with the highest standard of living and many social care benefits provided as a right would cause lots of low-wage people from former Communist countries with nowhere near those standards of living or levels of support to come here in their hundreds of thousands. Unbelievable.

Its not about land space though its about who is going to pay for all these homes, hospitals, schools, infrastructure chili? This country by no means has a bottomless pit of money.

are you kidding me? There is so much pent up demand for housing you will be able to sell places in no time. Immigrants don't come to this country with a shirt and trousers only. many come with money, and are willing to buy housing.

There's some weird view here (actually it's also true where I am from) that immigrants come, take jobs and housing, but don't consume. How?

While britain's population has been relatively stable for the last half century, other countries have doubled in size. How did they build the houses?

The green belt is supposed to preserve some of our countryside and prevent endless urban sprawl. Do you really think that the answer is to just pave over the entire country until we're all living in a world of concrete? Given the choice I think most Brits would rather reduce the number of immigrants moving here!

The UK only has a certain amount of jobs. Increasing population means more people per job. Whatever way you look at it there are going to be the same amount of people in work paying taxes but more people out of work needing welfare support. The same amount of people having to pay for more and more houses, schools, hospitals, etc. It really is basic geography.

The green belt is supposed to preserve some of our countryside and prevent endless urban sprawl. Do you really think that the answer is to just pave over the entire country until we're all living in a world of concrete?

did I say that? how do we go from 10% built on to 100%?

The UK only has a certain amount of jobs.

Really? what number is that? that just makes zero sense. Immigrants, like everyone else, eat and buy tellees.

Service jobs like shops are not well paid jobs and thereby don't bring in much tax revenue to pay for the required infrastructure.

Boils down to issue of planning and provision.

Would you plan a wedding with no idea how many people were coming? How many to feed, how big the venue would need to be, how many staying overnight?

Obviously no-one would. Would you plan a children's birthday party with no idea how many to provide for? What about if one child decided to turn up with four sublings and expected them to join in? Wouldn't be very easy to plan as might not be room, food etc

So why is it considered ok to run a county like that? No idea how many people will need school places in five years? Infrastructure is created by planning - you don't just chuck loads of money at it and expand endlessly.

I really find it strange some people obsess over the word "immigrants" and aren't able to focus on the issue of resources. It's grown up thinking to plan, to help those in need etc - it's certainly not grown up thinking to just wave everyone over the border that wishes to come here to work

who cares how many I or you personally know?

Well I think this is relevant actually, because I know a lots of Europeans who have moved here to live and work, yet I can't think of one Brit of working age who has moved to Europe and is still there working, right now. And I know a lot of people. I've worked in Europe myself on three separate occasions in two countries. I've worked in four different industries and I can't think of a single person who has moved to Europe to work and is still there. Not one.

I was sitting in my local the other day. Evroyne around me was speaking some East European language...(I think it was Polish as se have a Polish supermarket in town)

Where do they live?
Where do the people who used to live in those houses now live?
OTOH, my nephiew who has a good job on £29k (50% higher tham the majority of local ear ings) and a £50k deposit can only afford a two up two down terraced cottage..

Yes we need to build a hell of a lot more houses..., but should we be convrting our green and pleasant land into an urban landscape to accommodate new immigrants? ... from anywhere...

What happens when our economy tanks and the EU immigrants leave en masse and leave us financing all the infrastruture we've built to accomodate them. Whe the A8 Eastern European countries joined the EU Labour said 5000-16000 people would come to the UK each year in 2014 it was 268,000.

Free movement of people on this scale who have the ability to come and go as they please makes any planning of infrastruture impossible. I think houses are not being built in the numbers needed pad because the politicians are in denial about the scale of the problem that is immigration. 3/4 of the British public want immigration to be reduced.

Leave while we can.

I am really surprised how many posters are saying leave on this thread. 5 years ago MN was awash with people saying "I'm with Nick", so it's quite a sea change. If MN is like this then what about the rest of the country?

Has anyone counted up the remain versus leave posts? It must be at least half in favour of out.

Var, I think considerably more than 50% on here are opting to leave. A massive swing which gives me hope. I've been anti EU for a very long time and used to feel I was the odd one out. Not any more though. I'll count the votes later.

I know var123. It worries me. People have bought into the anti immigration rhetoric and cannot see beyond that.

Being part of Europe makes us stronger. It's better for our environment. It provides us immense opportunities on the global stage.

But let's just bang on about immigration because that's the only thing that matters shall we? Seriously? Has everyone turned into a ukip voter?

Don't get me wrong - I have been anti EU since 1998 (euro launch).

I am just surprised to find my views in the mainstream. Even after 2008, I thought I was in a tiny minority who believed the EU - not the common market - was not workable unless there is a war and we all find ourselves under occupation. (Then it would work because individual countries would accept that being treated unfavourably is a natural consequence of losing the war).

Being part of Europe makes us stronger. It's better for our environment. It provides us immense opportunities on the global stage.

Really? Perhaps you'd care to elaborate on your views. Makes us stronger - how? Better for our environment - how? I can agree that being part of a larger bargaining block gives us a greater presence on the world stage than we would have on our own, but the other two things make you sound like you're the one who's been swallowing rhetoric.