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What the hell? Shooting in US centre for disabled people.

175 replies

BertieBotts · 02/12/2015 21:34

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34987697

This is sickening. Any shooting is but this has really upset me for some reason. :(

OP posts:
CanadianJohn · 06/12/2015 00:31

No need to put your pistol in your hadbag, ladies, you can buy a bra holster www.desantisholster.com/UNDER-FIRE-HOLSTER

Shock
nancy75 · 06/12/2015 00:34

My , that looks comfortable. You would have to be a contortionist to get the gun out without flashing your boobs at the same time

ImtheChristmasCarcass · 06/12/2015 00:36

Piglet A locking gun cabinet isn't expensive, but they are relatively easy to carry off or get into if you're determined to do so. I think they're OK for childproofing, but I think laws regarding storage of firearms need to be tightened to the point that you have to have something that an unstable person (thinking of the Sandy Hook & Columbine shooters) wouldn't be able to get into or carry off.

But the gun safes (the ones you describe as 1880s safes) are virtually impossible to get into or carry away. They're around $500 USD & weigh 250-300 lbs.

SenecaFalls · 06/12/2015 00:53

I don't mind saying, nancy, that I do not, nor have I ever, owned a gun. I do admit that there is an old shotgun and an old rifle in my house; DH inherited them from his father. They are for hunting and he doesn't hunt so I have no idea why he keeps them. We have no ammunition.

I fired a rifle once when I was in my late teens (at a target, not an animal); it knocked me on my butt. That cured me of any possible interest in firearms.

PigletJohn · 06/12/2015 01:28

Carcase

Zoom to 8.18

r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9mSs2pfjGNWrwcAriiA3YlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTEzdHFibWRtBGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDVEFVSzAxXzEEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1449393375/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.youtube.com%2fwatch%3fv%3dltK-bDbADa8/RK=0/RS=JKWG_3NlSDoj5_BJ5FALqdZhA3o-

This is a tin box lined with plasterboard or similar. An axe or a hacksaw will get through the side in ten minutes. An anglegrinder in one. Open the side, reach in, lift out the guns.

ImtheChristmasCarcass · 06/12/2015 02:38

What I think needs to be mandatory is concrete lined with steel walls & multiple locks. Huge and heavy. I don't think the one in the video is concrete lined, but maybe I'm wrong.

Of course, nothing is foolproof. If someone wants to get in bad enough, and has the heavy duty power tools, they will. But if it's just your unstable relative or a random burglary, hopefully they aren't going to bother. To me it's not enough to secure weapons against children, we also need to mandate some type of storage that will keep them away from all but the most determined criminals. I also think that mandating this type of storage could possibly deter some people from buying guns in the first place.

CheerfulYank · 06/12/2015 02:53

People really don't just carry guns around :) I suppose in some states you can, but people don't unless they're trying to make some kind of weird point. I would definitely be uneasy! I remember a woman making the news because she was carrying a holstered gun at her daughter's soccer game. Hmm I believe that was the south as well but it was considered odd enough to make the news.

ImtheChristmasCarcass · 06/12/2015 03:05

Some people do Yank. I personally know of at least 3 people who have CCW permits and carry unless they are going somewhere they either legally can't carry or they know will be searched or 'wanded'. And this is in California! God only knows who's carrying in the 'red' states!

It's really silly, because in most of the real shootings (Bataclan, San Berdoo, Columbine et al) that have happened, even they admit that it's unlikely they'd have been able to reach, draw, aim, and fire their weapons before being shot themselves by the perps. Even in a mugging they admit they wouldn't be able to get to their weapons before a mugger shot, knifed, or clubbed them. But yet they say they feel 'safer' because they carry. Confused

CheerfulYank · 06/12/2015 04:10

Well, yes. I assume it happens. I just meant that I've lived in the US for my entire life and in the Midwest, which has its share of gun enthusiasts to say the least, I personally have never seen someone just walking around with a gun strapped to themselves. Maybe they do have one concealed somewhere, but I've never seen it. I've seen guns in soft cases in cars, gun cases and safes in homes, and people walking around with shotguns or rifles during hunting season in the country.

ImtheChristmasCarcass · 06/12/2015 04:42

Calif isn't an open carry state so people can't (legally) walk around with weapons showing, but I've been in a couple of open carry states. I've never seen anyone 'open carrying' there, either. I agree that someone 'open carrying' is trying to make a weird point. Or I suppose you could draw some type of Freudian/gun/penis conclusion. Grin

Roussette · 06/12/2015 09:02

I thought chilled said she carried her gun at all times? And felt nervous travelling to countries where she wasn't allowed to carry a gun....

Why would anyone break into a safe to steal guns when they are so freely available? Don't or didn't some Banks give away a free gun when you opened a bank account, and also I think I read somewhere that some car dealers give them away when you buy a car. (I appreciate this is the sensationalist side of the subject..)

MrsWembley · 06/12/2015 09:19

[[http://Leytonstone Tube station stabbing a 'terrorist incident'
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35018789]]

Not dismissing this as anything other than serious, but imagine if there had been guns readily available to all involved!

CheerfulYank · 06/12/2015 12:36

rousette afaik it isn't exactly like that. My gun mad brother in law has won guns before but they don't just hand them over. He has to pass a background check and show he's completed firearms training. Additionally, in our state, you can't legally get a handgun if you show up on the gangs database.

It may be different in other states but I would shocked if anywhere stocks guns and hands them out like candy at a car dealership!

Roussette · 06/12/2015 12:44

I'm afraid to say CY according to this it is true.

Admittedly you have to provide paperwork but how rigorous is that paperwork?

CheerfulYank · 06/12/2015 12:59

But...no, they aren't stocking guns at the dealership and handing them out. Confused they are giving out gift certificates to a sporting store. Texan gun laws are extremely lax as far as I know, I'll grant you that, but to imply that banks and car dealerships keep guns on hand and pass them out is a bit sensationalist.

Roussette · 06/12/2015 13:16

Probably! But to even think of a gift certificate for a gun is so alien to us. I watched "Bowling for Columbine" and remember Michael Moore making a deposit over a certain amount in a Bank and walking out with a gun supplied by the Bank.

ImtheChristmasCarcass · 06/12/2015 13:16

Roussette The gun laws vary widely from state to state. From 'open carry' which means you can carry a gun openly anywhere unless expressly prohibited, to 'concealed carry' which means you may NOT carry a gun visibly at any time and must be licensed to carry a concealed weapon.

Most states have some kind of paperwork and waiting periods involved in gun ownership, but again it varies widely. A business could 'technically' give a gun away to a person who is legally allowed to have one. In the article the dealership gave a voucher to be taken to a shop. The dealership could give a voucher to someone not allowed, sure, but the gun shop would not be able to accept the voucher nor give that person a gun.

Where I live you have to be fingerprinted and have a Dept of Justice background check. This check runs a person through a Federal data base to check criminal and mental health history, dishonorable discharges, immigration status, whether someone is under indictment, and drug use. There is also a 10 day waiting period (this is currently under attack by the gun lobby). You have to pass a safety course or have a safety certificate.

Roussette · 06/12/2015 13:22

Fair enough Inthe. But whatever the checks, it isn't enough is it...

this makes interesting reading. It talks of gun violence being an epidemic and treating it accordingly. Some very valid points in this article.

CheerfulYank · 06/12/2015 13:46

Bowling For Columbine was edited as all hell. If you actually read the original transcripts of Heston's speeches, etc, you come away with a different picture.

Here's something in regard to the bank purchase, written by a blogger':

*Here's the procedure for the gun program, as it was explained to me:

  1. You walk into the bank and ask for "the account where you get the free gun."

  2. You're shown a catalogue of available products. They're famous for their guns, but you can also choose a set of golf clubs, a grandfather clock, or other expensive bric-a-brac. You pick out an item.

  3. The gun isn't actually "free"; you're buying a Certificate of Deposit and the bank is paying you all of the interest from the account in advance, in the form of fabulous prizes. The bank employee knows what each item costs and calculates how much money you'll have to desposit and how long you'll have to keep it in there to pay off the gun. For instance, I was told that to get the Mark 5 Stainless Weatherby, I'd have to deposit $5697 and keep it there for three years.

  4. You fill out paperwork. Two sets, actually. One is the usual paperwork for opening a CD, the second is information for the required firearms background check.

  5. You go home and wait. The bank processes your paperwork, both to make sure that no other bank has ever lost money doing business with you, and to make sure that they can legally sell you a firearm. I asked the rep how long the bank took to approve a customer and get him his gun, but she was uncomfortable with giving me an actual number.

"Well, are we talking hours? Days?" I asked.

"Oh, days, definitely." Later in the conversation, she described it as "Like, two weeks' worth of days."

  1. When the bank is satisfied that it's safe to issue you a CD and a gun, they notify you. You have the option of picking up the weapon at a local gun dealer or right at the bank but in either case, the weapon has to be shipped there from a different location. No gun inventory is kept at the bank; the only firearms they have on hand are display models so you can fondle the merchandise before you make a selection.

So there are obviously some major disconnects between the experience Moore presents and the experience a customer would have if they didn't appear with a film crew. Again, this is preliminary stuff: it's possible that the process was indeed just that simple when Moore came to film. But it's also possible that the bank agreed to streamline it for the purposes of filming. Unfortunately, the woman who actually chairs the program (and perhaps can speak more authoritatively) was on vacation when I called, but I've got her return-date circled on the calendar. Stay tuned.*

CheerfulYank · 06/12/2015 13:53

For what it's worth I support the same causes Michael Moore does, but his films are heavily edited and biased. He doesn't simply film what happened and show it.

This is also an extremely biased look at BFC, but I do think it makes for interesting reading.

ImtheChristmasCarcass · 06/12/2015 14:01

Oh I agree Roussette. Personally I'd like a total gun ban, very similar to what the UK has. But it will never happen here. That's already been decided by the Supreme Court.The best we can hope for is to tighten the laws to a stranglehold.

Even then, it won't be 'enough'. If someone is determined to wreak havoc with a gun, they'll find a way. Anywhere in the world, they'll find a way. Paris, Dunblane, Malmo, Sydney, Columbine, multiple locations in the ME. All we can do is make it as difficult as possible.

Roussette · 06/12/2015 14:12

Absolutely Imthe.

Cheerful, yes I imagine BFC was edited, it made a good programme but really the point is, to even think of offering a weapon as an incentive, however many days it took to get it, is bizarre to us in the UK.

SenecaFalls · 06/12/2015 15:29

President Obama is addressing the nation tonight about San Bernardino. I am sure he is going to talk about the terrorism aspect, but I hope he doesn't back off the gun control issue. Many people, including some of the Republican candidates for president, are saying that the answer is more guns, as if the victims would have actually had a chance to save themselves with handguns against assault rifles.

ImtheChristmasCarcass · 06/12/2015 16:27

Yes, it'll be interesting to see what he says. I hope he pushes HARD for stricter gun laws. It may have been terrorism, but the guns weren't brought over from the ME, they were purchased legally* here. Obama's a lame duck now and can pretty much say whatever he wants (within reason of course) And since Biden isn't running he doesn't really have to worry about saying something that would 'damage' a Biden campaign ('guilt' by association).

*I've heard that there were some shenanigans with a neighbour (legally) buying some of the guns & giving/selling them to the murderers, but I don't know the specifics.

talkiinpeace · 06/12/2015 16:34

Semi Automatics are for people who are crap at shooting.
If you cannot disable a person in 2-3 shots your gun is worse than useless

so how about the USA makes the rule allow good shooters to defend themselves
and get rid of the multi kill guns for morons

nothing over 4 shots
no more than one gun per adults

2nd fully met
suicide risk reduced

sorted

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