What the hell? Shooting in US centre for disabled people.

[BertieBotts]

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34987697

This is sickening. Any shooting is but this has really upset me for some reason. :(

They have found an arsenal of guns, pipe bombs and bomb making equipment in the couple's apartment.

I think there is much more to this.

What I don't think chilled is grasping isnt that making ownership of a gun illegal would change things but is that if legislation changed you wouldn't be able to walk into a store and buy a gun.
The simplicity of it wouldnt be there anymore.
So yes if someone was determined enough they could get one, but it would be a hell of a lot more difficult than it is now - which puts a stop to the mass shootings. The ease in which the weaponry is available is the problem.
I have used guns, coming from a rural farming family pheasants and foxes would be shot before injuring livestock.
Single shotguns, it still never crossed mone or any of my families minds to sleep with it under the bed for protection - what are you protecting yourself from?
Those of us in the uk will never understand the USA NEED to carry a loaded firearm.

There's lots of inaccuracies on here. There is roughly one gun for every person in the US. 88 firearms per 100 residents. The number one country for gun ownership.

Someone asked "what about all the guns in circulation in the US if laws were changed". Australia found that buying back 3,500 guns per 100,000 people correlated with up to a 50 percent drop in firearm homicides, and a 74 percent drop in gun suicides.

Every time this subject comes up, there are posters who insist their way is the best, the US should be able to carry firearms and why doesn't the UK? It's like wanting us to do the same so they feel better. It is a mindset thing totally. I think it's because those in the US talk themselves into their way being the right way despite the facts.

There's two things that the pro gun lobby latch onto on threads like this. Switzerland and the UK and knives. Very predictable as it always happens. Those points are answered time and time again and without doubt the pro gun posters never look at links that prove having guns does not work.

chilled the second paragraph of your post from 00.18. The gap between our thinking is so large, it's bigger than the pond between US & UK! We don't go round cowering in fear, most of the population don't feel the need to carry pepper spray, we don't need personal protection, we know that chances are we aren't going to encounter a gun toting teen in everyday life. We live our lives not worrying about guns. If there is a gun incident in the UK, it is on the News for days. It is normal for you. It isn't for us.

You may find our way of thinking bizarre and you think we should all be tooled up. We think your mindset is bizarre, ridiculous and as far as the UK... if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The reason we think like this is facts and figures. Please read this, I don't think you have.

I must come back and apologise for calling Chilled stupid. That was rude.

I do however think it is extraordinary that people who are clearly intelligent can continuously fail to link the ready availability of guns with the daily incidents of mass shooting. And think that that is a morally superior position.

I don't think that the fact that more than four people would be shot in one incident every single day would be a price worth paying for my ability to walk around feeling cocky because if someone pushed in line on me I had a gun in my pocket and could shoot them.
And let us not forget that the huge numbers we are talking about are only for mass shootings - more than four victims. We are not counting the frequent incidents of things like toddlers shooting themselves or the guns used daily in crimes.

It's batty. And I'm sorry, the argument that it makes you feel more confident in a 'take no shit - I'm armed' way does sound faintly psychopathic.

Chilled I hope you come back to this thread, although I agree we won't agree(!) I still find it really interesting to hear from someone that sees this in such different way to anyone I know in real life.

Getting of the subject slightly I am really intrigued by how you came to see gun ownership as something that is vital to you.

Did you grow up around guns, or do you live in a particularly high crime area where you feel at risk from something?
What do you do when you go on holiday and can't take the gun with you?

I'm getting so wound up by this. Chilled - you sound batshit crazy, not chilled at all. Are you saying that if the US had tighter controls that there would have been MORE gun-related deaths?

if he's willing to murder people, is making his gun illegal to carry really going to deter him, and clearly it's not.

Your argument doesn't work chilled. Of course if someone has intent and has a weapon, illegality is not going to deter them. It doesn't then logically follow that guns should therefore be legal. Just because some people do bad things whether or not they have easy access to weapons doesn't mean that those weapons should be easily available . It's the availability and widespread possession of weapons that legality and entitlement gives rise to that is dangerous. I suppose it's good that Americans support their current gun laws though, because they have to live with the death toll.

San Bernadino - and I quote...

^The suspects in the San Bernardino shootings used semiautomatic rifles that were legally obtained despite gun laws in California that were intended to ban assault weapons and are widely regarded as among the strictest in the country.

The rifles were variants of the popular AR-15, the semiautomatic civilian version of a military M-16. They are surprisingly easy to acquire in California, though they come with limitations aimed at curbing their ability to inflict mass damage. Semiautomatic rifles, for instance, cannot have magazines that hold more than 10 bullets or can be quickly removed.

However, such limitations can be easily, if illegally, bypassed. For instance, a 10-bullet magazine can be quickly removed by pressing the tip of a loose bullet into a recessed button, allowing for a high-capacity magazine to be inserted in its place.^

I think Chilled is getting a bit of a bashing here - I clearly don't agree with Him/Her but I think the view they have comes from living in a place where it is so normal to think everyone has a gun that it becomes almost impossible to imagine what it is like to live without one, just as I can't imagine what it would be like to live somewhere where having a gun in your bag/pocket/house is totally normal.

Capri don't worry too much about it, gun ownership is one of the most if not THE most controversial political issue in this country so there's always going to be heated debate on the subject. I think that everyone on both sides in the gun argument genuinely believes that their views are the best option in trying to save lives. I don't honestly believe that anyone in the anti gun camp WANTS to see more people die, they really believe that by implementing more legislation they will save lives. It makes their hostility towards those who do carry a bit more understandable, because from their point of view "my way saves lives, this guy disagrees, therefore this guy doesn't want to save lives".

nancy75 I live in a state where we have quite friendly laws towards ownership and carrying, I grew up around them. I was introduced to, and taught how to handle and fire, guns from a young age. I see some people saying that children should never be allowed near a gun but that sounds rather dangerous to me. Do you want your kid to learn about guns from an experienced person in a controlled environment and be taught to respect everything that gun represents, or do you want them to learn about guns from gangs on the streets, people who carry them for all the wrong reasons, and who have no respect for the item they possess? It's not really a "take no shit I'm armed", that sounds quite confrontational. It's more the idea that I'm armed, you're armed, if either of us try anything then both our lives will probably be over (either both die, or 1 dies and the other goes to jail). That's a very powerful incentive for everyone not to try anything stupid. Petty theft is rare because the thief doesn't want to take the chance that the victim will fight back and end up shooting him in self defence.

Rousette we don't go around "cowering in fear" either. You say that you don't need personal protection but that is a very silly thing to say. You don't know whether you need protection or not, it's impossible for you to wake up on a day and know for sure that you won't need to protect yourself that day. The odds might say you probably won't have to and we all hope they stay that way but sometimes the odds don't go your way and you need to protect yourself.

There's lots of inaccuracies on here. There is roughly one gun for every person in the US. 88 firearms per 100 residents. The number one country for gun ownership.

To put this in perspective, most gun owners own more than one firearm. A lot more, unfortunately. But nearly 80% of US households do not have firearms in them.

Can I ask the citation for "80% of US households do not have firearms in them"?

Chilled thank you for the explanation, I think it goes along way to showing why we in the UK generally have such a different view on the whole gun thing.
You think "do I want my child to learn about guns this way or that way" - in the uk the thought that our children would ever go near a gun in any situation is completely alien to us.

Just out of interest do you / have you ever traveled outside of America? How do you feel being without a gun as a tourist?

Can I ask the citation for "80% of US households do not have firearms in them"?

Survey conducted by University of Chicago in 2014 showing that only 22% of Americans possess a firearm cited in my prior post.

chilled. Firstly, well done for coming back on this thread. Secondly, it is so hard to put into words, but I honestly have never ever ever felt that I need to arm myself (and thank god there is not that option in the UK) or have personal protection or anything similar. It is not silly to say that. I don't want to see a gun, handle a gun, learn how to shoot one, it is completely alien and it is the way I and my family live over here. I have DCs living in London and they take a lot of care but they don't go about their lives living in fear or feeling they need to carry a weapon, pepper spray or anything. Having said that, we are not naive, we are not stupid. We take reasonable care of ourselves, we don't take risks, we don't put opportunity out there for anyone.

Also, on the link I have done twice on here, it is proven that being armed does not protect you. Even those trained in firearms repeatedly failed every test and didn't even manage to get their gun out before being shot at (in a simulation exercse). So having a gun does not protect you.

I cannot imagine living my life thinking I need personal protection every time I set foot outside the door. To me, that is a horrible way to live.

Linking the report. But I see that I misquoted the report. 31% of US households DO have firearms (the lowest level in 40-odd years), only 22% of Americans personally own firearms.

I do not personally own a firearm, my DH does as he target shoots recreationally. I am trained in the use, storage, and care of firearms since we have them in the house, but I don't shoot nor do I ever carry.

www.norc.org/PDFs/GSS%20Reports/GSS_Trends%20in%20Gun%20Ownership_US_1972-2014.pdf

Isn't pepper spray also illegal here in the UK?

Anything carried as a weapon is illegal here I think? So if you walked around with an empty bottle in your bag to hit someone with you could in theory be arrested? I might be wrong but i think that's the case

Yes, I think you're right nancy. The only legal self defence product is a rape alarm AFAIK

nancy75 I do sometimes visit countries where I can't carry a weapon and it does make me feel less safe. But as I'm not allowed to carry there there's no point trying to argue or make my case for being allowed to do it, I just get on the best I can with whatever the local laws are.

Hi Roussette I wasn't going to post again but I saw nancy saying she hoped I would, so I decided to. You say it is proven that being armed does not protect you, but that's incorrect. You can't take the premise that some people weren't able to protect themselves in very specific simulation scenarios, and then extrapolate that to the conclusion that no citizen is ever going to be able to protect themselves under any circumstances. As you can only test a very small number of possible scenarios, you can't use the results to make sweeping judgements about what the conclusions would be in every other possible scenario. Would any of the citizens who "died" in the simulations have survived, or had a better chance of surviving if they weren't armed? If they wouldn't, then I don't see why you would want to take their gun away from them. Surely a chance at fighting back and surviving, while far from a guarantee, is still better than being completely defenceless?

Well... chilled I appreciate I was make a sweeping statement but if citizens who are well trained in firearms cannot protect themselves, it would lead a layman like me to assume that it is not a given.

You say that us in the UK aren't able to protect ourselves and we're 'silly' for not wanting personal protection or weapons but I liken it to driving a car. Road accidents are far too frequent but that doesn't stop me driving a car. Likewise, I walk the streets, I carry on my daily life without the need to personally protect myself because I don't go around worrying at the chance of something happening to me, because, for us, a shooting is a very unlikely scenario, because it is illegal to carry a gun.

You say "would any of the citizens who died in the simulations have survived or had a better chance if they weren't armed?" Your country is in a completely unique position of being overrun with guns so the answer would have to be "no". (30 homicides by firearm per million people versus Australia who introduced an amnesty on firearms and now have stict gun laws 1.4 homicides per million) We aren't in your position in the UK and we really don't want to be. For us, the fact it is illegal to carry weapons, works.

US media is reporting that one of the attackers pledged allegiance to IS

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35006404

If true, this isn't going to lead to further discussion of gun control, but a realisation that radicalisation is occurring in US and the nature of the threat has evolved again.

chilled
When a family member came to stay from the US she wanted to be independent so we gave her a key and a map.
She was tall, young and stunning so sensibly asked about which areas to avoid.
And what to do if attacked.
She was genuinely amazed when we told her to kick in the groin and then run as there was zilch chance of them catching up with her
and an even lower chance of them carrying any sort of a "distance" weapon
such as a gun.

There is almost no risk of mass killings in the UK because after Hungerford and Dunblane the rules were tightened up

Friends who love their guns fire them at the gun club
those with shotguns shoot lots but generally not at people

the USA is, one day, going to have to take the same approach that Australia and the UK did
spend part of the police budget on an amnesty and make illegal all weapons not needed for hunting food.

Good article on the BBC drawing together all the facts and figures that have been quoted on this thread.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34996604
The US gun crime statistics for 2015 (so far) make horrifying reading.

My god, that article makes for sobering reading. 353 mass shootings so far this year?

And 161 school shootings since Sandy Hook less than a year ago?

The trouble is, as far as I'm concerned, the figures are so shocking that I find it really really hard to listen to any defence or reasons for having guns.

Of course, we always have to take account of what a tiny country we are compared to the vast US but when you look at the figures per 100,000 so that we can equate it to the UK, it is still so awful.