What the hell? Shooting in US centre for disabled people.

[BertieBotts]

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34987697

This is sickening. Any shooting is but this has really upset me for some reason. :(

chilled how can you dispute the basis in reality

We don't have guns in the UK and we don't have mass shootings

Australians don't have guns and Australia doesn't have mass shootings

Americans have guns and America has mass shootings again and again and again

What is the thing that makes America different to the other 2 countries I have mentioned?

Fair enough a gun ban might not stop a hardened criminal from getting a gun but it would stop all of the pissed off teenage boy shooters that kill their school mates, it would stop those shootings that are done in a moment of rage or blind panic

The fact that you feel the need to constantly have a gun makes me think that you live in a constant state of low level fear and given the gun situation in your country I don't blame you. However in the Uk I don't know 1 person that would consider walking around with a gun as a normal rational thing to do.

I know that Switzerland has what I'd consider common sense laws but in general the rest of Europe is pretty extreme

Extreme? In the sense we don't carry around weapons with us everyday, and we don't have mass shootings every week?

Yes, we're the crazy, extreme ones

Outaboutnowt not every week, if the stats above are correct it's every day

Yes I suppose so, nancy, even worse
to me, that statistic sounds so ridiculously high my mind can't comprehend that it can possibly be right.

In my 25 years I have never even seen a gun in real life.
the American gun obsession makes no sense to me. I am very happy living in a country where gun crime is a rarity and not a constant threat or worry.

"A lot of Americans look at England and your gun laws and how worried you guys seem to be about crime (there's a lot of "I'd feel to scared to challenge this guy/girl/group as they are bigger than me") and I wonder "will you never learn", that if you changed your gun laws you would be a lot safer and feel more confident"**
**
What?? Can you give me an example this please? When I would / should challenge somebody? That that guy just stole my parking space? he's bigger than me, oh it's okay though because I have a gun in my bag so if if he argues back I can just pull that out?

I don't agree with anything that you have said but that was just ridiculous.

I have seen the devastation incidents like this cause, the fear on that poor Dads face (video in the link) is just heartbreaking. I know people that that have been in this situation, not knowing if their Mum had survived a mass shooting (she didn't)

It has to stop!! Something has to change!

nancy75 the correlation you are trying to make is debunked by Switzerland. A high level of gun ownership yet almost non existent violent crime. You said a ban would stop all the pissed off teenage boys from killing their mates, why is this, do you think they will just check the gun laws and abandon their plan after realizing it's not legal? I guess I just don't understand this idea you have that a ban would make these guys chose not to use their guns, or getting access to them in the first place. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Outaboutnowt, I think it's pretty extreme that you aren't allowed to carry anything for protection, you don't even allow people to carry pepper spray. What do you guys do if you get attacked, keep repeating over and over to your attacker that it's a violence free zone and he has to stop, and just accept that you can just get beaten up whenever anyone feels like it? We don't have an obsession with guns, or rather most of us don't. I'll admit there's a few weirdos but for the most part it's just people looking to protect themselves. The break glass in emergency option that you hope you never need to use and indeed most of us will never need to, but for those who do, we're glad it's there. If you're willing to provide me with personal police protection who will do the job for me, putting their lives on the line to defend against any attack one me, then I'm more than willing to discuss not carrying. But that's not practical, you can't afford to give proper protection to every person. And if you can't give them proper protection, you have no right to take away their ability to defend themselves.

It would stop pissed of teenage boys shooting their mates because they wouldn't have a gun to shoot them with, I would have thought that was pretty obvious if they don't have a gun they can't chose to use it. Depending on the level of their annoyance they might try to get a gun but most of them wouldn't be able to and the few that could would probably have calmed down and realised that shooting a load of people is not a great idea.
You keep saying you need a gun for your protection, how many times have you actually protected yourself with that gun?
Bringing up Switzerland, what's your answer to why they can have guns and control themselves and Americans can't?
All of the pro gun stuff I hear is from people that have convinced themselves there is a monster round every corner, it's a sad way to live and something that we, with our lack of guns and pepper spray don't suffer from.

I knew that's what you were meaning Nancy, I just didn't know why you assume they wouldn't have a gun. Is it that you feel if we tell them enough times they aren't allowed one, they will decide not to use it? I've never needed to use my gun to protect myself. Hopefully it stays that way. I honestly can't answer why Switzerland has less of a problem but my best guess is that there are a lot of idiots who lack the proper respect towards guns in this country, the gangland type people who get into turf wars and end up killing people for "respect". Interestingly that kind of thing is a bigger problem in places like California with strict gun control.

No one is convinced there's a monster round every corner. You're basically saying that if someone doesn't feel totally safe and worried they might one day be attacked and need to defend themselves, that they are paranoid and convinced an attacker lies around every street corner. The two things are very different and you simply cannot try to say that to feel one is to feel the other. It is like saying a police officer is paranoid because he carries his gun and his baton. Is he really paranoid though? Does he really fear an attacker round every corner? Probably not, he's just making sure that if he IS in danger he has what he needs to have a good chance of getting out safely. Have a look at the world in which we live, tell me honestly that you are completely confident in your ability to make it from now until your death without ever being in danger once. If you cannot truthfully say yes, that doesn't make you paranoid.

We aren't going to agree on this. The only thing we can agree on is that these incidents are bad and they should be stopped. We probably agree that some action should be taken towards doing that, but we clearly don't agree on what action would be effective. I think the anti gun lobby, if they got their way, would have a lot of blood on their hands as incidents like these would become more frequent. But that's just the opinion of one guy.

I assume teenagers wouldn't have a gun because in a country where you can't buy guns and parents don't have guns and nobody you know has guns then its pretty safe to assume a teenager doesn't have one.
Police in the uk don't have guns, they rarely get shot.

You are right, we won't agree because I can't imagine living in a place where is is reasonable to think that a teenager might have a gun, you can't imagine a life where the thought of a teenager having a gun is bordering on ridiculous.

But it wouldn't be a country where you couldn't buy guns, it would be a country where you couldn't legally get them. Big difference. You've attributed something to me that I haven't actually said, and I wouldn't say that, because it's too broad a comment to make. It's like saying "should a man go to jail or be allowed to roam free". I can't say it's reasonable or not for a teenager to have a gun without knowing more about it. Are they looking to practice shooting and learn how to safely handle guns in a controlled environment, or are they wanting to get one to rob the local store?

tgis is the problem, you can't get your head around the idea that people could just not have guns. In the uk the number of teenagers that would ever have tried to get an illegal gun is minuscule. There isn't a country in the world where you can't buy an illegal gun, but the fact of them being illegal makes them incredibly hard to obtain and it's something that the majority of the population would never think about doing. Most people in the uk would have no idea at all about how to get a gun, even for legal stuff like hunting or target practice.
In America I think the ship has sailed, you've all got one so you all want one, what you don't seem to get is if you didn't all have a gun you wouldn't all need one.

I can get my head around the idea just fine. You can't seem to get your head around the idea that it wouldn't happen in reality. Very few people in this country would be put off by the fact it's illegal to get a gun, they would just decide to get one anyway. Maybe your country is different, but this is why your ideas don't always work in our country, and our ideas don't always work in yours.

You said that if we all didn't have a gun we all wouldn't need one. Not completely accurate, I'd still feel the need to have a gun in case I needed to defend myself, because a gun is not the only weapon that could be used against me. If you're edging towards the "if there were no bad people in the world then you wouldn't need any weapon" argument then that's cool, I actually agree with that. Come to me with a guarantee that there are no more bad people in the world and you can take my gun away right now. Until then, you can keep your gun control.

I'm not going to try and argue this any further as you aren't going to have a change of opinion and we clearly aren't agreeing at all. Enjoy the rest of the evening.

To clarify why Switzerland is different from the rest of Europe AND from the USA:

Switzerland is a neutral country which does not belong to NATO and has no other country to protect it.
They have traditionally safeguarded their country against invasion by requiring nearly every male aged 18 to perform national military service and then to remain in the military reserve until age 30. IIRC, service is optional for females.

All these armed forces keep their weapons at home BUT not the ammunition, which is stored centrally.

So, the Swiss army / militia keep empty guns at home, in case they are needed against external enemies.
These weapons are NOT intended for personal protection against their fellow citizens. Not available if they see a rowdy group of young men, or to protect against car theft, mugging, burglary or harsh words.

So, a totally different mindset and purpose.

To carry a loaded gun in public is generally not permitted except for on-duty military or security personnel (or farmers / hunters on their land).

This is in great contrast to the USA, where most people of all ages, with no military duties, may have access to loaded guns, as protection / menace wrt their fellow citizens.
In fact, the Swiss militia protecting their country against external armies is pretty close to the original idea in the US Constitution of an armed militia.

It isn't just that it is illegal to have a gun in the UK and we are so law-abiding, but that because there are so few guns around, hardly anyone would know how to get one.
Yes, hardened criminals find a way, which is why the Uk has about 45 gun murders per year.

A mass shooting every day?! That's unfathomable.

Did anyone see the bullet proof blankets that are being sold to children to take to school? I can't think of anything that better illustrates the absolutely absurd attitude to weapons in the US. "We'll never give up guns - we'll just give our DCs blankets to protect themselves. All is well."

So glad I do not feel the need to "protect" myself in my everyday life. After all, anyone can buy a gun but I bet a million bucks most gun owners aren't trained in scenarios where they might be used. Most of us would just panic and pull the trigger - I include myself in that. I find it bizarre that any old US idiot can buy a deadly weapon and cart it about.

I'm 38. Holy hell

I live on the west coast of Scotland. Even during the troubles. Myself and my family feel safe enough that we do not need a weapon.

I trained with guns during my time with the Navy. I was instructed in safe use.

I don't need or feel the need for a weapon. I have never been attacked. If I were to be attacked.., I would fight back. I certainly would be happy knowing my attacker would be very unlikely to be carrying a gun.

I am appalled that people feel the need to carry weapons. I don't understand the mentality.

I have read your explanation and it still doesn't sit well with me.

To the point that I think there is no point in my posting this reply.

Nothing I or anyone else say will impact your warped perception that carrying a weapon is necessary.

Gun control is needed. Too many children have died. Too many. 1 is too many.

You can keep your eagle. I'm happy with my Unicorn

I'm not going to wade too far into the controversy.

Just a gentle reminder that not all Americans have, use, or approve of guns. A recent poll conducted by the University of Chicago showed that only 22% of Americans possess a firearm and this figure includes law enforcement officials (who normally keep service arms at home) and others who may have firearms for legitimate purpose, such as hunters or farmers. I know 22% may still seem like a large number, but remember, that means that nearly 80% of Americans do not have a gun, nor do they feel the need to have one.

The NRA has a 'paranoia' stranglehold on many people. They have a financial stranglehold on our elected officials. At this point, I don't know what can be done to loosen those strangleholds.

chilled keeps talking about Switzerland. Those are rifles / pistols (nothing automatic) issued to military trained men. Every man serves in the Swiss Army and is ever after on standby, so to speak. They know how to use them, store them etc. Legally the guns are meant to be locked away, not left sitting in a drawer where a kid can get hold of it. Nor should they be carried around on a daily basis.

If any reason, such as mental health for example, prevents someone being conscripted, they will not have a gun. People cannot just go down the local shop and buy a gun of any kind.

Switzerland does have, by European standards, a high rate of gun suicides and marital shootings. But no, they don't have mass shootings. I assume they would need easy access to semi automatics / pump actions for that.

Finland, where gun ownership is also high, is usually the place in Europe where you will find school shootings.

Most mass shootings in the U.S. , including the ones with the highest number of fatalities were committed with handguns. Automatic weapons already are heavily restricted.

Banning guns just won't work here and is never going to happen. Even if it did, what about the hundreds of millions of guns already in circulation and privately owned? Most people will not hand those over. It would literally cause a civil war.

I don't know what the answer is, background checks for all gun buyers definitely, and no sale if they have a criminal record. The real question is what is wrong with American society that a seemingly large number of people see mass murder as an option?

This incident was an act of terrorism, no amount of gun restrictions would have stopped it.

TBH I do know where I could get an illegal gun in my city : it would take me about an hour.
But I cannot think why on earth I'd want to do so

I love the fact that chilled keeps banging on about Switzerland with absolutely no understanding of the difference in the type of weapons and the circumstances that lead everybody to have a gun.

When I went to Switzerland I was reminded that the Swiss are neutral because they hate everybody equally.

chilled I'm afraid I just don't understand where you're coming from. Your argument seems to be that to protect yourselves from people with guns you must have more guns. It is illogical. In the UK we don't feel the need to have a weapon for protection, we just don't. Our police carry tazers sometimes, and police dogs. When somebody is murdered in the UK it makes headline news, at least in the local news.

I grew up in a part of the UK with a higher than average crime rate and I have never felt that I wish I could carry a weapon. I've been a victim of crime but I can't see that everybody also carrying guns would make that situation better. For example, when I was a child and we walked in on a burglar, if my dad and the burglar had both carried guns, how quickly and dangerously could the situation escalate?

There are people with guns in the UK, illegally and there always will be, but it is not common. Me and DP were saying last night, if we had to buy a gun tomorrow, we don't even know where we could get one.

I think we just have a very different culture to you. Out of interest, in your opinion, what do you think would help to stop, or greatly reduce shootings in the US?

This is still in the news this morning.

They have still not ruled out terrorism (Islamicist, I assume).

The nature and extent of the couple's arsenal (included explosives) might be one of the reasons why it's not being considered a typical grudge shooting.

Motive still described as 'unknown'

I live in Switzerland ,and yes nearly every house has at least one gun ,bullets are not stored at home.It is illeagal to own bullets and have them in your home.We have obligatory shooting days for all citizen in the army.You get your allocated bullets there and have to use them all oder give the rest back.
When we were growning up we knew there were guns in the house ,but not where they were stored and we did not care to find out