9/11. Not interested in a debate here, but can we just have a quick show of hands?

[AnotherEffingOrangeRevel]

I'm just interested in how many people around here are also highly skeptical of what we have been told about 9/11.

I'm really not after a debate (it would be long, involved, probably pointless and personally I have done this elsewhere), but I just wanted to see who is around.

It has very strong ongoing relevance for current world events.

Many thanks.

Why such a crazy idea that it might be a false flag event?

There have been loads of them (false flags) throughout history, even if you only count the ones which have been eventually admitted to by governments.
I don't know if 9/11 is one or not, but it's entirely possible.
Of course the official story seems more plausible to most - it's the first story we're told, it's rammed home repeatedly, it's the default. This is well recognised psychologically.

Why such trust in our media?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/41-admitted-false-flag-attacks.html

thanks for starting this, OP - hilariously funny in places, tragic example of someone wasting evolution-given brainpower in others.

just need 'big pharma' to complete my bingo card.

bit dated now, but I recommend 'Idlewild' by Mark Lawson, a novel about conspiracy theorists and conspiracies. Set in an alternative future where JFK and Marilyn Monroe both lived into old age. It will ring lots of bells after reading this thread.

to answer the OP's question: no. Occam's Razor.

You know, special, generally I think I've got a pretty good sense of humour. But I just can't find much amusement in 9/11, whoever did it (be it 19 muslims and a guy with a beard on dialysis in a cave somewhere, or someone else). I just don't see it.

FFS, that was obviously not what I referred to! The funny (also tragic) bit is the sheer stupidity of some posters who will believe anything with no evidence, because it is student-cool to be against the establishment.

as they sit in their entitled democracies...

Funny how this is still treated as quite such a minority - nutty - view on here. In many sectors, it's really not.
Some polls have shown that about a third of Americans don't accept the story they have been told, and a similar number of Canadians. A quarter of Germans don't think that Al-Quaeda was responsible. This includes a lot of highly intelligent, informed, educated people.
In many other non-western regions the accepted story is very different. Russian mainstream media has stated that Americans were responsible. Now I'm not saying that's necessarily true (I mean they can't be right, can they, when so many James Bond villains have eastern European accents?), but to assume that what we are told in our part of the world is the truth, to think we must be the ones whose media has an unbiased view, is bizarre (although a very normal human tendency, I suppose).

This was partly why I was interested in having a mini-poll on Mumsnet. I'm interested in the demographic here. It has indeed been very interesting. Thanks to all for contributing.

Your post could very easily be turned around, specialsubject. I'm not in the business of calling people stupid on the basis of what they believe - I think it's pretty complicated and contextual why we believe or question what we do - but you're on shaky ground there.

CBA with this crap.

9/11 was a mass murder. Fact. Not a government conspiracy.

many people are really stupid and incapable of making logical judgements. Fact.

truth is not a matter of belief, but of evaluating evidence.

If you think we come to believe what we do because we all logically evaluate the evidence (which we tend not even to have access to), then your understanding of human psychology is very different from mine.

I will agree with you that 9/11 was a mass murder, though. A horrific one.

What exactly is the "story" that we've been told about 9/11?

I saw, live on TV, planes fly into each of the WTC towers. I then saw thousands of people dying, live on TV, as the towers burnt and collapsed. Which part of that isn't true?

Is the identity of the hijackers in doubt? Or whether the planes were hijacked at all? Who is supposed to have conspired to do this, if not terrorists?

I object strongly to being told I have "swallowed" some official line. I will look at the available evidence and come to a conclusion. The fact that it isn't the same conclusion as conspiracy nuts enthusiasts come to doesn't make me an unthinking sheep.

I'm interested in those highly intelligent, informed, educated people you claim are conspiracy theorists. You haven't gained any real insight into the demographic here - a show of hands on Mumsnet is 'evidence' to you, is it? Perhaps it would have been more illuminating if you asked - 'do you think the US govt. deliberately murdered their own people and what is your level of education and how do you get your information.'

I don't understand why you conspiracy theorists are so afraid of putting their own theories and evidence forward for scrutiny. Is that some kind of conspiracy? If you are so proud of your unbiased theories on 9/11, why don't you tell us all about them.

OP, are you suggesting that the Americans did it, or not, I can't really tell from what you've put. It looks rather like you are suggesting that Americans did it on the basis that life is not like a James Bond movie. Is that your proposal?

No one has called you an unthinking sheep, Culture.

Do you think a third of Americans and a quarter of Germans are all nuts?

a show of hands on Mumsnet is 'evidence' to you, is it?

Well, it's evidence for something, as you as you don't over-interpret it.

Helmet, I don't have an unbiased view. Neither do you, and neither does anyone else. I'm not remotely proud of what I think, although I'm not ashamed either. I would love to be able to believe that we're the good guys like our media tells us. I used to enjoy thinking that way, and wish I still could.

That's the implication though, in my opinion, from what you are saying.

I have no idea about whether a 1/4 of Germans are illogical, although I can well believe a third of Americans are...

You have mentioned "Some polls" without specifying which ones, what the question asked was, how it was phrased and what the possible responses were. How can I possibly comment on the meaningfulness of those polls without any more information?

Sorry, as "long" as you don't over-interpret it.

It's very simplistic to think of "good guys" versus "bad guys". Everyone has motives for what they do, which are complex and are not as simple as good/bad.

What is it evidence of?

It depends what they think if they're nuts or not, doesn't it? If they go round saying 'It doesn't add up, but I don't want to talk about it, or give any reason for saying that', then it certainly looks like they are not very bright.

Op, you said in your first paragraph, It has very strong ongoing relevance for current world events. What did you mean by that, or is this another of your strongly evidenced but 'I'm not discussing this' theories?

Well claig, I'd be very sad if people decided that the rational response to 9/11 is to turn into rightwing nutjobs because that is precisely what was wanted. 9/11 and 7/7 were America and Britain's Reichstag fires - same tactics and same players behind many of the genocides and atrocities of the past century. It's worth looking into the foreign policies of Kissinger, Brezinski and freemasonry in general (my grandfather is one - they value 'social order' very highly and tend to get very upset if they think they are losing at staying on top of that) . Saudi Arabia has a very close relationship with these players and fundamentalist Islam was the means by which they hoped to counter the Soviets. OBL was on the CIA payroll in the 80's under the name Tim Osman. Just read 'Foreign Policy' and 'Foreign Affairs' articles from 1993 onwards right up to 2001. It was no secret that there were extensive plans to invade the Middle East. The people need a reason to be convinced to go to war. People can stay silent out of fear for themselves and their families - there are also traditional crime organizations involved. Others stay silent because they are rewarded very well. Some are silenced permanently. Remember it's a racket.

Each human life has value. Yes, there really are plots to 'pull the wool over our eyes' but we need to come together to understand what is going on because there really are just as many people with good will on all these 'sides'. I just don't believe Trump is one of them.

It's very simplistic to think of "good guys" versus "bad guys". Everyone has motives for what they do, which are complex and are not as simple as good/bad.

Very much with you there, culture.

I do find it interesting that, as far as I can see, no one on this thread is insulting anyone for going with the official story (all the "don't call me a sheep!" seems a little baseless), but there is immense rudeness and name-calling towards those who don't accept the official story.

It has very strong ongoing relevance for current world events.

What I meant by that is that 9/11, whoever was behind it, changed world politics and created an atmosphere of fear in a lasting way. It was used as motivation for invasions, and remains relevant in this way.

Yawn.

Just tell us exactly what you think happened. Who did it? Why did they do it - and show us your evidence. I'm sure it will add up beautifully.

What is it evidence of?

I'd say it's evidence (not brilliant quality evidence, but an indication) of the proportion of MNers who do not think we have been told the truth about 9/11.

Yawn.

Just tell us exactly what you think happened. Who did it? Why did they do it - and show us your evidence. I'm sure it will add up beautifully.

Yawn. Read my previous posts. I'm bored of repeating myself now.

And if you're interested and still haven't made up your mind (like me), do your own reading. It really is the only way.