Greece part II

[Hullygully]

I would be very grateful if we could keep this about Greece, and those (two) who want to dance up and down jibing at Claig and calling her a fool and a kremlinbot and an anti-semite, start their own thread for that purpose.

Cheers

Alyosha - I am not arguing that the democratic will of the Greek people makes sense, particularly (to me it doesn't in the slightest, but then I'm not Greek). Nor am I arguing that the democratic wills of the other EZ countries don't or shouldn't count. I'm arguing that the EU and eurozone structures are fundamentally anti-democratic, because they are forcing European leaders to take decisions that run counter to what the various democracies that elected them prefer. They are doing so because the interests of this abstract financial superstructure have to be prioritised over democratic accountability.

This is the third time the EU group has openly advocated - or actually implemented - the fall of an elected government in favour of one that is better aligned with its interests. It's a corrupt and authoritarian system and is contributing to the growing crisis of democratic legitimacy in Europe. I am not an advocate of conspiracy theories; I think the people who run the EC, ECB, IMF and so on genuinely believe what they are doing is in the interests of Europe. But while they believe this, they are also hostile to all but the lightest dusting of democracy, because they are afraid the people will make ignorant, selfish, nationalistic decisions and precipitate conflicts like we used to have in Europe.

To me, nothing is more sacred than democratic accountability, so I find this idea of a supposedly benevolent autocracy making deals behind closed doors absolutely abhorrent, however well-intentioned.

Viviennemary .... I suggest that we see the full terms first i.e. the Greek debt restructuring and loan amount.

If I understand correctly, Greece will be given much more money than asked for and on better terms if both make the changes to their economies sustainability they should have done years ago (and would have to do OUTSIDE of the Eurozone) - mainly because of the collateral they will have SHOULD future Greek governments AGAIN threaten to renege on their debts, as Syriza threatened, numerous times.

OTheHugeManatee ... why do YOU think throwing more money at Greece without reforms and creditor protection would have been acceptable to the democracies of the other 18- Eurozone members - when several countries had to get any deal through their own parliament first, before any Eurozone deal could become law???

Why can there only be a valid democracy in Greece, in your view?

France pushing the Greek deal if memory serves, had a Euro 60 billion annual budget deficit around 2010 (when ours was £153 billion), but its has risen to around Euro 80 billion (as ours has fallen to £70 billion) - with a National Debt an eye watering and rising Euro 2,400,000,000,000 (Euro 2.4 trillion).

As both the key pro Greece deal members and one of the largest contributors to Greece's bailouts, I wonder what THEIR citizens thought about further Greek bailouts WITHOUT the financial safeguards?

Did Hollande ever ask the French people?

P.S. France's Greek debt exposure was Euro 66.3 billion, 2nd only the Germany's Euro 86.7 billion.

Isit - I think you've misunderstood my position. I don't think non-Greek democracies don't count, as I said in my previous post. I'm arguing that democracy should be paramount; the problem is not that one democracy is better than another, but that the EU and the eurozone prioritises the interests of bureaucrats trying to create a superstate over the wishes of the electorates in its various constituent nations.

What we have witnessed in this crisis is democracy A effectively voting for fiscal transfers, not within its own electorate but from a different democracy altogether, and against the will of democracy B. The American Revolution started over taxation without representation, which is what Germany is currently quite rightly objecting to in the matter of Greece. The only way to solve the issue is either with a single superstate that enables fiscal transfers between its constituent states (which the electorates don't want, especially Germany, from which most of the fiscal transfers would flow) or else dissolution of the EU superstructure (which the eurocrats don't want). I'm on the side of democracy (however uneven the results) over technocracy (however well-intentioned) any day of the week.

I think the gradual collapse of the EU technocracy into open conflict with its multiple electorates is going to be the story of the next decade, and will end up precipitating the conflicts it was created to avoid.

I don't need to see the terms. Throwing more money at this disaster is total madness. It's throwing good money after bad. Bailout after bailout after bailout. Maybe Germany should start paying compensation for the chaos they caused in Europe during two world wars. That might be a way forward. This experiment is all gong to end in tears or worse.

Can i ask a probably daft question because I really dont understand much of this but why cant the EU just help Greece go back to their own currency and write off the debt until they are in a position to start repaying?

The new generation of Greek people look more than ready to change their way of life to help themselves or am I wrong

'why cant the EU just help Greece go back to their own currency and write off the debt until they are in a position to start repaying?'

Because that would be an admission that countries can exit the Euro and that joining the Euro is not irrevocable and that would then spread to other countries and the EU political class's dream of a currency and political union would then be over and that does not suit the elite who are behind them.

It is going to end anyway one day, but the EU political class are hanging on by their teeth, but they have populist parties snapping at their heels all over Europe.

Thanks Claig, but surely starving the People of Greece out is just making the EU look like a nasty organisation.

I'll be voting to get out of the EU if we get the chance, based purely on how they are behaving now and the fact it looks like Germany are calling all the shots to benefit themselves and throwing the Greek people under the bus in the process

If someone like me who takes very little notice of politics abroad until Yanis rode in has had their opinion changed on the role of the EU, there must be more like me which cant be good for Angela Merkel and her crew!

This cant be what they want.

Manatee - I see what you're saying now, and I do agree to some extent.

Fundamentally the Eurozone cannot work well without tighter fiscal & political union - which may (or may not) be to the democratic will of member states.

The EU power structure itself is also hardly a blueprint for democracy. Not helped by member states such as the UK campaigning on EU elections as though they were local elections, so MEPs are rarely called to account as people have no idea what they do and what they influence and the MEPs are in no hurry to tell them.

I also blame Blair a bit for deciding on the Party list system so the elected are often party faithful, rather than those who had to fight their way to be selected and who have the drive to deliver.

But I believe in the European project, although I think Europe needs reform. I believe in the European project because, from a socialist POV, the EU has brought substantial labour protections that wouldn't otherwise exist, and that UKIP & BOO Conservatives are salivating over removing. I am also anti-nationalist politics, so much as I didn't want Scotland to become independent, I also don't want the UK to break away from the EU. Nationalism was the scourge of early 20th century politics and I dread its return.

I'd also like to point out that the EU has been phenomenally successful at preventing war in Europe.

Theoldshmoo - This is why I think claig is off with her analysis - the Eurozone are doing what they are doing to impress the electorate within their own countries. They don't care what we think as we're not in their electorates & can't vote Merkel out. Of course Germany is calling the shots; they are one of the main creditors & the contribute the most in bailout funds! It's like finding it odd that the US has a lot of influence over the IMF...

The Greek crisis is a tragedy primarily of the Greeks own making - but that doesn't mean the EU shouldn't have demanded these reforms long long ago instead of leaving it until the last minute. If the Eurozone had been this tough with Greece upfront, Greece might have left the Eurozone ASAP or failing that, the reforms would have worked and Greeks would have seen GDP drop BUT would have seen public institutions working for them, and perhaps started paying taxes.

The Greek economy of course was in recovery before Tsipras & mates turned up...

OTheHugeManatee... we both agree democracies are key, and in this Greek case, we have to realise that the structure of the Greek economy is not sustainable, so both democratically and prudently, the democracies of the other 18 were right to challenge the Greek's Referendum.

As for bureaucrats, I'm the last one to to stick up for them, but you mentioned The United States of America, and how many times did it take to financially/politically become 'united', three if memory serves.

The point is a merging of 19 or more European States with one interest rate/currency and very different economies if badly flawed and CAN ONLY work as a honking great superstate, with the same accounting, laws, pensions etc - and democratically the appetite for that has shrunk, as the individual nations costs/balance sheets have rocketed - so in the end with the largest countries so financially 'in', the EU will exist, but maybe with just several core members, with 'tier 2' and tier 3' sub members.

Viviennemary ... re your "I don't need to see the terms. Throwing more money at this disaster is total madness."

As I have mentioned all alone, it is only 'madness' if the Greek economy can't do what we have had to do, address several issues at once i.e. rebalance the economy so the private sector pays all the bills for the public sector asap, and further growth to initially service its debts, then asap improve the lives of its citizens.

Not much difference to what a local Citizens Advice Bureau would say to any of us, if/when get in over our head due to whatever circumstances.

"The Greek economy of course was in recovery before Tsipras & mates turned up..."

Amen

Theoldshmoo, you are exactly right. I think lots of people are going to think exactly like you. We have all now seen what the EU is all about, we have seen what is behind their mask, and how they would treat any people (including us) if we were in the same spot.

"This cant be what they want."

They wish we had not seen their real face but they had no choice because their entire dream of political union hangs in the balance. They have to stamp out the Greek Spartacus rebellion in case it spreads to Spain and other countries in Europe.

'If someone like me who takes very little notice of politics abroad until Yanis rode in has had their opinion changed on the role of the EU, there must be more like me which cant be good for Angela Merkel and her crew!'

This is spot on which is why I have argued that the real losers are Germany and the EU. The resentments and conflicts and clashes that this has set up across Europe will end the political class's dream. It will be South vs North, left vs right, people vs elites - a disaster for the EU political class and their banking masters.

If it carries on like this Farage will be carried aloft by the people and will be hailed as a visionary who saw it all coming.

Claig - I don't think left wingers are going to flock to Farage, somehow.

Greens, maybe.

The speech to Tsipras by our leading statesman

Its all in there.

Now is the time to tell claig I actually have Farage's autograph - bizarre story involving a Labour students trip & a lot of vino.

Yours for £50 ;)

'I don't think left wingers are going to flock to Farage, somehow.'

Tthey will when they listen to Farage's speech above. It is all in there - the banks, Goldman Sachs, the German arms manufacturers etc etc

Left wing means more than believing a bunch of conspiracy theories.

I dislike 95% of UKIP's policies.

YY isitmebut...is the most I have ever agreed with a conservative?! :D

This is a bit similar to a local council voting in a left wing council promising increased and better services and low council tax. But it can't deliver it when funding comes from a central government. Funding is coming from the EU so Greeks aren't really in charge any more. That's my take. I'm voting out of Europe. The richer countries in Europe can't carry the poorer ones which is what they have to do under the Euro currency.

'I dislike 95% of UKIP's policies.'

Of course you do, because you like austerity. You think it is the fault of lazy Greek workers who didn't pay their taxes, not the fault of fat class politicians and banking elites who conspired to shift private bank debt to save their national private banks by transferring the liabilities to the European taxpayer without asking them and then sticking misery on Greek people who had nothing to do with it - cleaners, nurses, teachers, school children and the 10,000 suicides.

You can keep your autograph of Farage and I hope it one day makes you rich, I buy nothing off a Blairite.