Greece part II

[Hullygully]

I would be very grateful if we could keep this about Greece, and those (two) who want to dance up and down jibing at Claig and calling her a fool and a kremlinbot and an anti-semite, start their own thread for that purpose.

Cheers

'YY isitmebut...is the most I have ever agreed with a conservative?'

Don't lie, Blair is a conservative (though not a real one, one of the modernisers).

I wouldn't say Greek workers are lazy - just averse to paying taxes. Something which has bitten them on the bum.

Really? Do you question every shopkeeper & online store about their political allegiances?

Also Farage was pretty hot on many of the key changes in the budget incl. limiting tax credits & CB to 2 kids - you knew that, right?

Blair wasn't perfect, I disagree(d) with many things he did. But I trusted the Labour govt. to have the fate of the poorest in their minds with most of their policies.

'Something which has bitten them on the bum.'

Yes, it's the people's fault, not the politicians. With socialists like you around, no wonder Labour lost the electionand lost Scotland for good. Bring in Jeremy Corbyn, a real socialist.

'Do you question every shopkeeper & online store about their political allegiances?'

If they have a picture of Tony Blair's ugly grinning diabolical mug in their window, I walk right on by.

It's more nuanced than that. Why don't Greeks pay taxes? Because the state is corrupt, and they don't get much their taxes (+ they probably like having the extra dosh).

But you can't get super pensions for nothing, and Greeks need to start coughing up to the level of Germany if they want German level benefits, and the state needs to reform so that Greeks feel that they are getting something for something.

Why are the people only right if they agree with you?!?

'Why are the people only right if they agree with you?!?'

Because I'm usually right. I understand the fat cats' game, just as real socialist, Jeremy Corbyn does, and real Conservative, Nigel Farage does.

'Why don't Greeks pay taxes? Because the state is corrupt, and they don't get much their taxes (+ they probably like having the extra dosh).'

If they didn't pay their taxes, then how did their state and health service and airports and railways and motorways and schools function when they had the Drachma and before they had the Euro for more than 50 years?

They were tricked by the political class, big banks and big business to enter the Euro and then French and German banks flooded them with cheap money to buy submarines that didn't work and to prop up the ailing French and German economies after which a gang of politicians, bankers and bureaucrats transferred the debt of their own national private banks onto the European taxpayer and deanded that Greek cleaners and nurses and pensioners paid the bankers back by paying for a rocketing debt, 90% of which went straight out of Greece to keep the bankers in champagne and bonuses.

Claig, they didn't have as high benefits & entitlements as they have now. Did you ever visit Greece before the Euro?

The infrastructure was even poorer than it was now.

So in answer to your question - they didn't function that well.

Greece's decision to spend huge sums of money on their armed forces is something that France & Germany are desperately trying to get them to reverse right now... As I have said there was corruption on both sides, and France & Germany did benefit from Greek contracts.

But you can't blame France & Germany for Greece deciding it wanted to have a modern armed forces with none of the cash to pay for it. It's not as though German subcontractors sent Greece a submarine they didn't want then sent through a bill.

'The infrastructure was even poorer than it was now.'

Yes they weren't stung for all the backhanders and contrafts to French and German companies that the Olympics involved, wth their rusting empty stadiums that the people didn't ask for.

'Greece's decision to spend huge sums of money on their armed forces is something that France & Germany are desperately trying to get them to reverse right now'

Yes and America wants all European countries to spend more on defence to meet any threat from Russia.

'But you can't blame France & Germany for Greece deciding it wanted to have a modern armed forces with none of the cash to pay for it'

They have been spending a firtune on arms for years. The CIA even put the Colonels in a coup back in the late 1960s and they were spending big on defence then. They have no choice but to spend big on defence because they have Turkey next door.

'It's not as though German subcontractors sent Greece a submarine they didn't want then sent through a bill.'

Don't you understand about backhanders, Swiss bank accounts and corrupt elites? Everyone's a winner except the people. Business as usual.

Instead of reading Tony Blair's book, "The Journey", and adding money to his coffers, maybe you should start reading the World Socialist Web Site to understand what goes on

"Troika arrives in Athens to organise looting of Greece"
...
The troika is acting like a liquidator, collecting debts on behalf of the global banks by selling assets and demanding cuts. And it is the Greek working class that is being made to pay.

Since the onset of the global crisis in 2007, the Greek economy has been plunged into a recession made worse by the demands of the troika. After five years of shrinkage, the economy is set to contract by nearly seven percent this year. Government spokesman Simos Kedikoglou said Tuesday, “We will present information [to the troika officials] that is astounding. It is alarming in terms of the recession and unemployment, and it shows beyond any doubt that the current policy does not bring results.”

But even as it warns of the results of such policies, the government is making clear that it will carry out further measures, including the closures or merger of around 60 state-funded organisations, many of which provide vital social and cultural services. To meet the rapacious demands of the banks and European corporations, it plans a fire-sale privatisation of whole sectors of the Greek economy. The Financial Times reported, “plans to accelerate privatisation and other structural measures aimed at persuading international lenders that it is serious about speedy economic reform.”

www.wsws.org/en/articles/2012/07/gree-j05.html

And this is all done to prop up the elite's failing banking system. Greece has been and will continue to be looted and when they have taken everything that moves there they will move onto the next country in Europe and pull the same trick. Evetually they will run out of countries and people to loot.

If Greece had spent the money on the infrastructure, which is what they said they wanted the money for....well they would be in a much better place for future growth than they are in now.

Corruption goes both ways. Many, many "ordinary" Greeks benefitted from corruption too. Corruption is so insidious because it gets under your skin; it pollutes from root to branch. No one wanted to get off the gravy train while it was still rolling.

What's your point? America this, America that. France & Germany want Greece to cut back.

And Greece isn't tooling up against Russia, they're tooling up against Turkey.

Yes, corruption on both sides... And sometimes the people win from corruption actually, that's how successive Greek govts. have built support - by using corruption to favour their special interest groups.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2012/03/07/greek-politics-corruption-cartelisation/

Thankfully Greece is getting tired of corruption and now is the time to reform Greece root and branch to stamp out the scourge of corruption.

re Greeks and not paying tax,' it's only worth playing by the rules if you can be sure that most other people are toeing the line.

If it's common knowledge that everyone is cheating the system then the rational response is to also cheat.

Thats why corruption is so pernicious and intractable once it takes hold

(cross posted with Alyosha there)

"If Greece had spent the money on the infrastructure, which is what they said they wanted the money for....well they would be in a much better place for future growth than they are in now."

"New analysis of IMF figures, released by the Jubilee Debt Campaign, show that almost all of the money lent by the IMF, European governments and the European Central Bank to Greece has been used to pay off reckless lenders, with less than 10% of it reaching the Greek people."

jubileedebt.org.uk/press-release/least-90-greek-bailout-paid-reckless-lenders

'What's your point? America this, America that. France & Germany want Greece to cut back.'

America makes the decisions, not the EU political class. America has told Germany and France to up their military spending in NATO.

'And Greece isn't tooling up against Russia, they're tooling up against Turkey.'

America doesn't care who they are tooling up against as long as if and when there is a war with Russia, that European countries are prepared.

The troika are despairing of Greece actually reforming publically owned institutions and are short-sightedly (IMO) using privatisation to try and force a more modern Greece without constant state meddling in public enterprises. Although considering Greece doesn't have any cash to run services, privatising them and bringing in private capital isn't such a dreadful idea.

Privatisation of energy & transport is a bad idea; but there's no need for Greece to own lots of lovely beachfront land, or all the airports, or the ports etc.

Russia is quite keen to buy a stake in Greek utility companies - there's a geopolitical headache if I ever saw one!

Yes...I'm talking about when Greece was originally lent money...not the bailout. The money they were originally lent went on govt. programmes, salaries pensions - NOT what they were actually given the money for (genuine infrastructure development). Houses/hotels left unfinished for tax reasons etc.

If America makes the decisions why are France & Germany demanding armed services budget cuts? Doesn't that blow a giant hole in your argument?

On Sky News yesterday someone said that the EU are forcing Thatcherite reforms that take years to implement on Greece in months.

The Germans would not do that to East Germany, the French would not do that to the South of France or Calais.

Farage has said that "the EU project is dying" and the political class won't admit it. He has said it will end badly.

The EU elite are pushing austerity to save their banks all over Europe at the expense of people. Syriza challenged it, Podemos is next and Jeremy Corbyn is frightening the life out of the PPEs by being in second place to Andy Burnham.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda...Greece is where it is now. They've accepted the package. They're staying the Euro.

I'm not a fan of everything being pushed on Greece - but it was all so easily avoidable if Tsipras had told the truth and said - look - we can't get a better deal. The choice is between being & the euro or not. Our creditors have lost patience and we're in last chance saloon.

Or even before that if Greece had made the changes faster and started collecting the 90% of tax receipts they were owed...

But he didn't and he's screwed over his electorate.

Let's hope the reforms work and Greece can return to the place it was before Tsipras and his mates walked around the economy with a giant sledgehammer.

I think the EU are pushing austerity to save their taxpayers money, actually...

anyone else forsee the next greek government being the far right/neo nazi golden dawn and friends?

'I think the EU are pushing austerity to save their taxpayers money, actually...'

No, I expect they are spending that on ring-fenced foreign aid.

Err you do realise that makes the EU look quite nice? Spending lots of money on helping people? I thought you were all for foreign aid when it involved giving Greece a blank cheque?

What happens to us if we vote to leave the EU?

Will they turn on us or are we allowed to walk away peacefully without a financial war waged on us or doesnt the money thing affect us?

'Err you do realise that makes the EU look quite nice? Spending lots of money on helping people?'

Helping their mates and consultants and charidees and the wages of their charidee cronies more like.

'I thought you were all for foreign aid when it involved giving Greece a blank cheque?'

No, I agree with Farage, Greece should leave the Eurozone and default on the bankers' debt. Then the cronies would fall in general elections.

'What happens to us if we vote to leave the EU?'

We will be better off and be able to set our own laws.

'Will they turn on us or are we allowed to walk away peacefully without a financial war waged on us or doesnt the money thing affect us?'

They will try a Project Fear as was tried against Scotland, but it is all bluff just like their "square bracket" bluff over temporary exit for Greece in their draft document. We are their largest trading partner, the 5th biggest economy in the world. They need us more than we need them.

If we leave, it is the end of the EU.

Austerity doesn't work. Well, it does if you're rich as you're not affected. I hope the Greek parliament rejects this 'deal' as it will turn an economic basket case into a worse one, and they'll be back for more 'bail outs' in a year or so. They're only bailing out the banks anyway, it'll be cheaper in the long run to let them fail, like we should've done in 2008.

Greece could sue Goldman Sachs for their role in fiddling their books so they could join the Euro.

All of the opposition to the bailout by Finland and Slovakia etc was all theatre, all bluff.

At the final meeting, there was only Merkel, Hollande, Tusk and Tsipras - not even Renzi. All the other countries do as they are told. That is what they call democracy.

Greece could sue GS for something they asked GS to do?!

The Eurozone should be able to sue GS for landing basket case Greece in the Eurozone more likely...

If we'd defaulted on debt we would have wrecked our economy for years to come - and not have been able to borrow money at a decent rate for years. You think austerity is bad now. It would have been 100000x worse had we defaulted.

Re: charity - glimmer of truth as always. Not all foreign aid spent well (range rovers and 5* hotels for UNICEF comes to mind) but again the idea is good if the execution is poor.

Yes, at the final meeting Germany had alrady been given the go ahead and instead of having 18 people in the room vs. the Greek negotiating team, they decided to do in a little less intimidating way...my god those EU bastards.