Greece part II

[Hullygully]

I would be very grateful if we could keep this about Greece, and those (two) who want to dance up and down jibing at Claig and calling her a fool and a kremlinbot and an anti-semite, start their own thread for that purpose.

Cheers

The Finance Ministers Meeting breaking up looks as if 'trust' of the Greek Syriza government remains a key issue - as it would on the High Street if had a huge loan, missed a few repayment deadlines and fecked about rather than show credit worthiness.

For more bank liquidity the ECB wanted bank assets/collateral up front, now the hard line countries worried about getting any new deal past their own democratic process back home before this deal can go ahead, are talking about the Greek government offering solid collateral for further loans, or temporarily leave the Euro for 5-years.

Well done Mr Tsipras, what a legacy you'll eventually leave the Greek people.

How does increasing inflation increase the cost of debt?

Interest rates go up. Cost of debt goes up.

If you have access to a smartphone, a Mac or a pc with USB drive then you can store crypto. Mt Gox was, according to Japanese police, most likely an inside job. You can even get bitcoin as paper that can only be used once. I'm sure Bank To The Future or bitcoin websites explain it better.

For days the media have been telling us that Greece was nearly alone (apart from France and Italy) so that we were supposed to think that the bankers had won. Now as we approach the endgame, Sky report that we are now at 50-50 with 9 countries supporting the Greek proposal. As we approach the endgame it will be 60-40 in Greece's favour and at the 11th hour, the media will slip out silently that Greece got debt relief and hope that we don't notice.

But after all this, how will this affect the UK referendum? Will people in the UK vote for a bunch of people in suits and ties from foreign countries, a European metropolitan elite of their own equivalent of PPEs, having endless meetings in taxpayer funded buildings, drinking taxpayer funded coffee and having taxpayer funded meals, as they decide the fate of countries whose language they can't even speak or be bothered to learn.

While pensioners queue up for hours in the Greek summer heat with oxygen masks on, to withdraw 60 Euros per day, this metropolitan elite class of servants to the bankers meet in air-conditioned rooms, drink the finest taxpayer funded wines, laugh and joke and slap each other on the back, as they decide the fate of millions of people.

How much longer can the European Union survive?

Surely it would be possible to at least temporarily come up with some kind of currency to allow for some exchanges to take place.
Don't some cities in the uk have local token systems??

EU Leaders's Summit meeting cancelled. I thought it would be, I don't think the bankers want any ructions or posing by EU leaders as they approach a deal. Andrew Marr on the BBC says that a Grexit could be looming even closer. I say the opposite, a metropolitan elite stitch-up could be looming even closer where they don't want any "leaders" to stick their oar in.

Really? I hope you're right.

Suzanne - yes, you can store is in your bitcoin wallet.

But many people have found even that does not protect them against theft: gizmodo.com/hackers-have-stolen-40-000-from-bitcoins-biggest-wall-1518184070.

How many people know enough about encryption to keep their money truly safe from hacking? And of course your smartphone/laptop could be stoked an the bitcoins with it. And there will be people who want a service that not only guarantees their bitcoin deposits, but can also give them interest. In other words...a bank!

Doctor - the cost of new debt might rise but the cost of existing debt falls. It's not really in question that this is the case tbh. Read the link I have before & this for explanation: www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2011/06/escaping-debt-crisis.

Claig - you've been proven wrong time and time again on these threads. Germany isn't being humiliated, they're clearly in the driving seat and the US hasn't been able to force a deal.

And I see you've returned to the metropolitan banking elite language. You know if you just stuck with "elite" I would probably never have annoyed you so much on the last thread.

I wonder whether Tsipras will survive as PM. His gambit failed spectacularly and he's pushed his country to the verge of Grexit. I still think he might have done it intentionally. Perhaps he wants a Grexit for Greece's long term future and some help from China and or Russia, although I hardly think they'd be nicer creditors than the EU.

'I would probably never have annoyed you so much on the last thread'

I don't like people who try to smear me as an anti-semite or a Kremlinbot. I don't like you, sorry.

A central feature of crypto currency is that banks are not in charge of it, so whilst there may be a role for some sort of institution to protect your bitcoin it'd not have the same role as banks currently.

you appear not at all au fait with crypto currency ?Alyosha

Diane Abbott on Sky News says that "it does seem as if the Eurozone elite are determined to punish the Greeks for electing Syriza in the first place"

Couldn't agree more. Let's hope Jeremy Corbyn wins the Labour leadership election. Then the country will have a real choice between a real Conservative, Farage, a real socialist, Corbyn, and a mush of metropolitan elite modernisers from Oxbridge with PPEs who represent the bankers.

Diane Abbott supports Jeremy Corbyn for leadership. She says "Jeremy Corbyn's campaign has taken off and is frightening a lot of people".

I think PPEs, bankers, metropolitan elites amd media chums are in meetings discussing how they can stop Corbyn.

Varoufakis has talked about running a parallel currency 'in electronic form', similar to the IOU system that California used during their debt crisis in the largest currency union in the world.

All the private banks are looking at crypto but they're not sure how they can run one using Blockchain technology that profits them like fiat. They hate that they're shut out of transactions.

Suzanne - I'm not sure what your point is; yes banks wouldn't be in charge but you originally said that with Bitcoin they wouldn't be needed at all.

There will still be a demand for banking institutions for all the reasons people currently use banks and don't store their money under mattresses (apart from inGreece/failed sates).

I think you're overstating the effects of Bitcoin on the worlds institutions.

In addition, Bitcoin will be dominated by the wealthy and technologically astute rather then by at least nominally democratic institution and governments. I do not think this is an improvement.

Claig - I know you don't like me.

I don't think you're anti-Semitic. I just think you're using anti-Semitic dog whistles, whether intentionally or not. Maybe you've picked it up from whatever quarterly magazine conspiracy theorists read. My advice is to stick to "elite" without the metropolitan/banking bit. Still a bit dodgy but not as obvious.

At least we now know you think the elite are are bankers!

I think the Eurozone are punishing Greece for putting a bailout deal to a popular vote, then expecting everyone to believe they would implement reforms even harsher than those in the original referendum. They're stretching everyone's credibility.

It just needs a certain amount of traction, for people to see that it is possible to have a financial system which doesn't hinge on banks milking the rest of us

'Claig - I know you don't like me. '

Then you are cleverer than I thought.

'My advice is to stick to "elite" without the metropolitan/banking bit. Still a bit dodgy but not as obvious. '

But you have shown you don't know what is going on in Donetsk, or Greece or with Farage or Corbyn, so the only people who should follow your advice are PPEs.

I have to say, I do find it difficult to believe someone who loves Corbyn would write an ode to an Osborne budget, when newspapers for the last several months have been full of Tory plans to cut, cut, cut. Maybe I am an overly suspicious individual.

Donetsk is lovely, it's people are lovely. Hopefully if/when the conflict is over people can see its loveliness first hand and you can meet some ordinary people and ask ten their thoughts on the crisis. I wouldn't listen to Russian propaganda- make your own mind up! I can recommend the Hotel Eva.

Suzanne - instead it involves the technological astute and super rich milking us instead!

Another core problem with Crypto is that those first in are hugely benefitted over subsequent generations, perpetuating generational inequality even more than is already the case.

Vicky Pryce on Sky News saying that what may happen is that the EU will ask Tsipras to pass some of the austerity stuff through parliament and that their bailout will be conditional to that. To me that spells a face-saving operation for the Germans andthe bankers. they have to try to show the European people that they won, but I still think there will be a deal with some form of debt relief and at the end of the day that is a victory for Tsipras.

I agree with an economist in the New York Times that Tsipras gambled, went all-in a game of Texas Hold-Em and won, and I think the reason he did it is because the US had his back.

"Alexis Tsipras’s Aggressive Game of Poker Pays Off, for Now"
...
Mr. Tsipras went all-in, and he won, in the sense that Greece appears on track to get a somewhat better deal (a bit less fiscal austerity and possible debt relief down the road) than what was on offer two weeks ago. But he got that better deal only by risking it all.

It worked this time, but in the future Mr. Tsipras may want to choose his bluffs more carefully, or his fellow poker players in Brussels might just start calling them."

www.nytimes.com/2015/07/11/upshot/alexis-tsiprass-aggressive-game-of-poker-pays-off-for-now.html?abt=0002&abg=1

The bankers, the PPEs, the metropolitan elite and the media will insist that Greece lost, only Corbyn will the truth and say that Syriza won.

But I could be wrong. It is not over yet.

'Maybe I am an overly suspicious individual.'

And maybe you need to wise up and learn Politics 101. It is the people vs the elites, the People's Army vs the PPEs.

'But he got that better deal only by risking it all.'

Tsipras called their bluff and there was a PPE on his team. He threatened the end of the entire European Project. France blinked, Italy blinked, Germany panicked, America laughed.

Here is a real Conservative in a real Conservative nespaper. He is not a moderniser.

"Ex-Chancellor Nigel Lawson urges Cameron to kill eurozone as Greece teeters on the brink"
...
"The eurozone’s contempt for democracy, the gamble it lost – and why Cameron must now seize this chance for UK"

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3157803/Ex-Chancellor-Nigel-Lawson-urges-Cameron-kill-eurozone-Greece-teeters-brink-AGAIN.html

I just don't get this. Did the Greek PM plan this all along. Or did he just think he'd get the loans debt relief or whatever without austerity. How can he be trusted by anybody. What he says isn't what he does.

'Did the Greek PM plan this all along.'

Yes. But he has received advice. He has a PPE who went to St Paul's on his team. He has Varoufakis on his team, a visting Professor at a Texas University and himself with a degree from Essex University, just up the road from me in the County of Essex (home of the People's Army and the legendary Dog and Duck).

You have to look at who the winners are and who the losers are. Germany and the EU will be a loser. Greece is only a small bit player in a larger game.

'Or did he just think he'd get the loans debt relief or whatever without austerity.'

No, he knew he couldn't do that.But he has scored a symbolic victory, for democracy, and has set a preceent that will damege the Eu political class's dream.

Nigel Lawson, a real Conservative, has spelled it out.

"The eurozone’s contempt for democracy, the gamble it lost"