The Greek debt crisis....why?

[InDespair]

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

This thread is now starting to feel a bit like that point at a party where only the drunkest and rantiest people are still awake, and the conversation starts going round in ever more bad-tempered circles.

I know what you mean. Can I get in the taxi too?

At least Jeremy Corbyn had the courage to tweet in support of the Greek people. I can't find anything on it from Andy Burnham.

"Jeremy Corbyn MP ?@jeremycorbyn · Jul 5

The people of Greece have spoken, austerity has failed them and Europe must recognise this and end the human suffering."

twitter.com/jeremycorbyn?lang=en

No wonder Unite are backing him. I wish him luck.

Wait, so Syrzia are simultaneously the people's army (standing up to the Eurozone!) but also the tool of the elite (pushing Greece towards Euro exit)?

And Thatcher was good because of the big bang, i.e. privatisation, but you oppose privatisation because really you like nationalisation? And you like Thatcher punishing the Unions but you love the unions? And you stand for aspiration but are happy with Thatcher et al causing a massive asset boom?

Are you quite all right?

Yes I am sure, thanks :). And the USSR was dead keen on East Germany right up until it couldn't afford to be the USSR any more.

Isitmebut - who in the Syrzia coalition is pulling the strings do we think? Hard to see how Syrzia would win another election if they did crash out, or perhaps they plan to hire the whole of Greece as govt. workers on Drachma funny money after they leave the Eurozone.

'so Syrzia are simultaneously the people's army'

No, there is only one People's Army and it is led by Farage.

'but also the tool of the elite (pushing Greece towards Euro exit)?'

I think so, yes. There is a Greek PPE from St Paul's School in the team at the helm of Finance now. I don't know if the plan is for full exit which will definitely damage the Eurozone quicky or if it is for Germany to cave in and suffer debt by a thousand cuts as Germany is slowly weakened and the pressure is increased on them as Italy, Spain and Portugal are next brought into the mix. We will have to wait and see how it plays out.

'And you like Thatcher punishing the Unions but you love the unions?'

Absolutely. If the unions go too far, then they need to be reined in, but if they are stripped of their democratic rights then that should be opposed, because it is all about balance and justice and what is best for the people as a whole.

'Yes I am sure, thanks '

You are sure that your vote is secret?

"Today, to prevent fraud, every ballot paper carries a Serial number as well as a unique official mark. This means that, although the ballot in UK elections is supposed to be secret, it is theoretically possible to trace each vote to the voter who cast it. It is, however, illegal to do so."

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/general-election-2015-explained-voting-10227175.html

Alyosha .... politically claig is like one of those Russian Dolls, where you open one up and find a new one within, and another, and another.......until find the one with the smallest mind. lol

Re Syriza, they have whipped up an anti EU feeling to such an extent, I can't think what deal that they could realistically bring home and keep the citizens happy - so how many at the end of negotiations will be FIRMLY pro EU/Euro if they don't feel loved or appreciated by the other 18 Eurozone members?

Sundays Referendum was all about ending Greek austerity, effectively a mandate to do what it takes to achieve it.

Whether they go or stay now, Syriza the party has saved political capital/face to fight another day as at least 61% of the voters are with them in this fight, and shit tends to stick to a blanket.

The Greek 'wildcard' is Russia if there really is potential economic help to get then through a Grexit e.g. energy to fulfil their domestic need that doesn't take up finite foreign reserves to pay for it.

You see similar to you, I cannot believe that Syriza has handled this situation so badly WITHOUT an agenda we don't yet know and/or the promise of help if leave the EU.

I usually lean towards leftie economic incompetence over conspiracies, as apparently even here we waited 48-hours before the bank cash point machines ran dry BEFORE rescuing the banks lol, but the way they have handled the EU situation as a very weak negotiator, 'beggars' belief, if there isn't another motive.

P.S. In answer to your question, Tsipras pulling the strings, as he has the 'crowd charisma' to bend the people his way, similar to some dictators over the past century, so you don't know what he could be capable of. IMO.

"France will do all it can to keep Greece in the eurozone, because allowing it to leave would be too risky, PM Manuel Valls has said."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33421521

until find the one with the smallest mind
seems a bit mean Isitmebut
Claig whether right or wrong in her insights hasnt been rude or insulting, quite the opposite.

claig ...didn't YOU say 'the old good cop, bad cop routine' - and which one usual gets their way? lol

Germany has the purse strings, France is yet to significantly grow economically and they have too many unemployed (11% ish) to justify throwing French France money at a Greek bailout, to Hollande's OWN electorate.

Thank you Suzanne. Isitmebut does like to joke and make statements that are the opposite of the truth.

My prediction, out on a limb, is that the plan is not for Greece to leave because the US wants Greece in the Eurozone, I think. The fact that Syriza accepted the EU finance ministers' insstence that Varoufakis had to step down shows that a deal is on the way. Germany will lose and France and Italy will force Germany to make concessions. That will weaken the Eurozone and probably the EU, but the game in a few months' will move on to Spain, Portugal etc. which will continue the weakening process of the EU.

'Germany has the purse strings, France is yet to significantly grow economically '

Do you not realise that there are PPEs involved? Watch and see how Germany is forced to cave in.

suzannecanthecan .... I was a bit 'mean' to claig, but I can promise you that she and other posters are more than capable dishing it out to little 'ol me, but so as not to offend claig or fan club; I'm sorry claig, I now wish that I was dead for saying what I did. x

claig ... AGAIN with the 'kin PPE's, I take back my apology, pea brain!

But Claig I thought you wanted the Eurozone to stay together??? You're having your cake and eating it too. I imagine Russia hasn't quite decided what would benefit it the most yet - weak and divided Eurozone, great, but having to prop up Greece, financially draining. Hmm.

Itisitmebut - quite - the referendum was what sealed it for me. Selling their citizens a lie (75% of Greeks want to retain the Euro) that they could stay in the Eurozone with no pain.

Many people (Claig, especially ITT) love a convincing demagogue.

Suzanne - Claig does not have a political position as far as I can see. How someone can simultaneously plan to vote for Thatcher/Farage and Corbyn is just nuts. Her political position appears to be entirely dictated by a bizarre fusion of Right wing conspiracy theory and modern marxism.

And I am 15% sure she is a Kremlinbot. The other 85% thinks professional troll.

didn't YOU say 'the old good cop, bad cop routine'
Yes but behind the curtain, pulling the strings, there is a PPE.

It is not as simple as it looks.

I know Russian reasoning when I see it. Similar to Ukrainian reasoning (Oh yes we want to join the EU because we hate corruption! Now give me £20 plz.)

pea brain!

I shall cover my ears, I'm too delicate for such harsh language

'But Claig I thought you wanted the Eurozone to stay together?'

Not me, I think the EU is undemocratic, I want to see it fail.

'I imagine Russia hasn't quite decided what would benefit it the most yet - weak and divided Eurozone, great, but having to prop up Greece, financially draining.'

Greece always was and always will be in the US orbit. There is no chance of Russia being allowed to get a foot in, and they know it.

Or "the West is engaged in a giant conspiracy to spread Homosexualism and satanism, only Ukrainians like me can stand against this. Now I am going out clubbing with my gay friends and we will dance all night to some sweet Western tunes whilst knocking back vodka. No, my gay friends aren't like Western gay people, it's different, also I love the EU and want to join so I can finally escape Ukraine and live in a cool country".

True story.

Didn't you just say that Euro exit is what the elites want? Are you an elite person now?

If Ukraine is anything to go by neither the EU nor the US can be arsed protecting their sphere of influence, so I can't imagine they're worrying too much. If only Russian's paranoid conspiracy theories re: UK were half way true!

Claig, are you gasp a PPE??!

'Didn't you just say that Euro exit is what the elites want? Are you an elite person now? '

Is Farage ad elite person? Of course not, and nor am I. But te elite has now come round to our point of view. One day they will do the same on climate change. The elite are not wrong all the time.

'Claig, are you gasp a PPE??!'

If I was, then I wouldn't be on here. I would be drawing a fat taxpayer funded salary, drinking champagne and working out the next move in the game.

'If Ukraine is anything to go by neither the EU nor the US can be arsed protecting their sphere of influence'

The US has already won, it took most of Ukraine out of the Russian orbit and they won't get it back.

Tsipras is not in full control of Syriza. There is a hard left element that distrusts the rich Tsipras, Varoufakis and the PPE. They want Greece to exit. There is probably a battle between the champagne socialists and the hardline left in Syriza.

"Syriza Left demands 'Icelandic' default as Greek defiance stiffens"

The radical wing of Greece's Syriza party is to table plans over coming days for an Icelandic-style default and a nationalisation of the Greek banking system, deeming it pointless to continue talks with Europe's creditor powers."

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/11673989/Syriza-Left-demands-Icelandic-default-as-Greek-defiance-stiffens.html

This sort of thing will probably put the fear of God into the French and the Italians who will put pressure on Germany to offer Tsipras and the PPE a better deal.