The Greek debt crisis....why?

[InDespair]

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

Gemauve, the elite stitched us up, the PPEs carried out their tricks, the usual game.

Once again claig, I invite you to turn your gaze towards Russia - a country where the elite really have stitched up the population and stolen from them en masse.

We live in a democracy, which I can see irks you as we've rejected the Russophile Farage 8 times...

That's why Ukrainians want to join the EU - they took one look at Russia and another at Poland and know which model they want to follow. PS, it's not the one where unelected oligarchs wrap institutions around their little fingers.

A vote for UKIP is a vote for neo-liberal economic policies with an autocratic twist.

All that happened with Greece is that the government became greedy and thought they could keep the good times running forever. Again, the elite in Greece really did steal huge sums of money meant for infrastructure & public services - perhaps if all the money Greece had borrowed had gone where it was meant to Greece would be more like Spain & Portugal - up shit creek, but with a paddle.

Greece borrowed too much, under false pretenses, corruptly, and now they're paying the price.

I like democracy, that is why I support Syriza, Varoufakis and Farage, even if the media vilify them both, call them both amateurs and all the names under the sun. I am for the people and against the metropolitan elites, just like Labour's Jeremy Corbyn, Nigel Farage and Varoufakis.

A vote for UKIP is a vote for neo-liberal economic policies with an autocratic twist.

Or a bunch of conspiracy theorists in the pub.

claig ... if you want to say something useful to a debate with your UKIP hat and coat on, could you please take it ALL to the TTIP post/thread as UKIP oppose it, and I want to know why as I am still unclear what the main differences will be pre to post TTIP - and clearly Mr Farage and co, do.

How will it change our taxpaying and corporate lives?

Gemauve, the elite stitched us up, the PPEs carried out their tricks, the usual game.

Which tricks were those, out of interest? The ones you weren't clever enough to counter, presumably.

And perhaps instead of writing "the elite" you could at least be honest and write "Jews". You know you want to.

'How will it [TTIP] change our taxpaying and corporate lives?'

For a start it will drive a coach and horses through our food safety standards and allow the greater introduction of GM food. Many Tories and nearly all of the PPEs won't care about that, but wait and see what the people think. If UKIP try and u-turn on that, there will be an emergency meeting at the Dog and Duck, followed by a revolt within the People's Army itself which will make the People's Revolt of 1381 seem like a tea party.

The metropolitan elites in Greece are delighted by Syrzia, just as they would be delighted by the election of UKIP. Anything to stop paying taxes and contribute to that pesky society.

Jeremy Corbyn's policies are a photo negative of Nigel Farage's - how on earth can you possibly support both? Are you just quoting from Kremlinbot crib sheet now?

Nah - the Electorate rejected Farage and UKIP. That's why the Conservative party won, with Labour second. No trickery needed.

'The ones you weren't clever enough to counter'

Please leave me out of this. I countered all of them effectvely. UKIP contains plants (and I don't mean daffodils) that do the elite's job.

It is disgusting that you see the elite as Jewish and try to bring that into this thread. You shoud be ashamed of yourself.

Here is Zoe Williams on the "metropolitan elite". I am with the people against the elites. I want common sense policies that work for people, not for PPEs, whether they be Labour ones, Tory ones, LibDem ones or Syriza ones.

"The meaning of “metropolitan elite” is not fixed. It will change in the mouth of whoever says it, and it will take on the shape of the person to whom, for whatever combination of reasons, it is thrown at and sticks. But the anger is real: parliament, as the last century understood it, represented the people to the state. Parliament now represents the state to the people. And maybe “metropolitan” is a way to say that, and to give it a face."

www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/20/metropolitan-elite-britains-new-pariah-class

Alyosha , the rich elite filmed by Channel 4 News and Newsnight in the rich suburbs of Athens all voted "Yes" for their Establishment parties and the "Yes" to the EU banking elites and their EU servant politcal class.

The majority of the people - the 60% - who voted for Syriza were the poor, the unemployed, the working classes and the middle classes who have been screwed by the neoliberal policies of the Establishment parties and the bankers.

'Jeremy Corbyn's policies are a photo negative of Nigel Farage's - how on earth can you possibly support both?'

Because I support principle. I agree with much of what Corbyn says, but not all of it. I possibly go further than Corbyn - I want railways, water companies, banks etc nationalized. But I know it won't happen because the country is run by PPEs. So I think Farage makes more sense. But if Farage backtracks and allows GM food, then I will vote for Corbyn, who I am sure will not.

I vote for democracy and referenda so that we the people can tell Farage what to do and what we want, not the other way round. Politicians are our servants, not the other way round and that is why I agree with Farage over Syriza and the Greek people.

"It’s fantastic to see the courage of the Greek people in the face of political and economic bullying from Brussels."

Sorry for contributing to this thread derail.

Gemauve, Isitmebut - what would you be asking for if you were the Greek premier?

what would you be asking for if you were the Greek premier?

Liquidity, forbearance and debt forgiveness.

Unfortunately, if your previous finance minister thinks that dropping his trousers and shitting on the table is an amusing negotiating position, actually getting people to listen is rather difficult. And equally unfortunately, most of the accession eight appear to think that Greece should be cut no more slack than they were, which is to say, not very much; even if France, Italy, Spain and Portugal are willing to see Greece treated generously, it's pretty obvious that the A8 won't agree. Latvia and particularly Lithuania seem extremely unhappy with the idea of doing anything other than holding Greece to the terms of its loans.

Claig Farage doesn't want nationalisation, he wants privatisation. You only support him because he's a professional contrarian and loves Russia. Or you've been given a list of talking points and a target of including the phrase "metropolitan elites" at least 7 times a post.

I thought we had a secret ballot in this country? How the hell do you know how anyone voted?

Syrzia is highly beneficial for the Greek metropolitan elite. They rehired a lot of public sector workers & have stopped collecting taxes. The elite are the elite because they are wealthy. The wealthy tend to dislike paying taxes & have lots of capital tied up outside their home countries. Hence why UKIP and Syrzia both benefit the elites.

Don't you also oppose inheritance tax?

Surely the key feature of both of your contradictory political positions is - surprise surprise - who RT likes to quote a lot? HOW SURPRISING.

Do you think the No vote has strengthened Greece's negotiating hand - a lot of people seem to be quoting this as fact but it seems unlikely!

'Claig Farage doesn't want nationalisation, he wants privatisation. '

Farage wanted the Royal Mail to remain in public hands. I voted for Thatcher and yet she privatised many of our industries. That doesn't mean I agree with those policies, but I agreed with other of her policies.

In an ideal world, i want those industries renationalised and the banks as well, but I know we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world where PPEs and the metropolitan elite run our country, so it is no use me hoping for nationalisation, so I vote on other issues such as national independence and sovereignty and common sense and scrapping the metropolitan elite's Climate Change Act etc and that is why UKIP is the best choice in my opinion. But if they let the People's Army down by allowing GM food and other things, then I will switch my vote.

Do you think the No vote has strengthened Greece's negotiating hand

They don't have a negotiating hand.

They can ask for sympathy and solidarity.

That's all.

Alyosha ..... I have not followed negotiations too closely.

But it is clear to me that the Syriza Greek offers have no real understanding of the decimated Private Sectors role in 'growing' Greece out of economic, financial and debt trouble, which will be noted by the key Eurozone creditors - so spend more time getting concessions for businesses/job creation, rather than spend so much time defending the Public Sector cost base, that while populist, is unsustainable.

Whether the Greeks like it or not, those Eurozone creditors are viewing the situation as a debt service/repayment issue, especially when being asked for MORE money, not so much a humanitarian crisis - so ANY plan to make that more likely the Greeks need help with, I believe would be treated favourably.

THEN build on that 'good faith' resulting in creditor confidence they'd get their money back, by later asking for the debt forgiveness etc.

Has Greece’s PM Tsipras REALLY just put his last offer BACK onto the EU table 24-hours before his money dries up, when previously rejected?

But WHAT ELSE could he have done, having just requesting a new mandate by the Greek people NOT to accept the last EU offer, that expired last Tuesday - and having ‘won’ Sunday’s ‘NO’ or ‘YES’ Referendum – the Greek government painted itself into a corner with no (negotiating) wriggle room.

With no recent referendum, he could have said, look, I KNOW what I said to get elected 5-years ago, but THIS really is the best deal we will get, we need to accept it and use the back-channels to obtain debt relief or/and debt restructuring.

So the Greek strategy is ‘shit or bust’, with the latter likely.

Maybe we should open a guessing quote book on what will be the Syriza Marxist Brothers (in arms) will say as their ‘dignified’ parting shot at the EU?

I’d guess Tsipras would paraphrase Groucho; ‘we don’t care to REMAIN in any (Eurozone) club, that would have US as a member’

'I thought we had a secret ballot in this country? How the hell do you know how anyone voted?'

Who said I know how anyone voted? But are you naive about the ballot? It's not secret which is why there can be prosecutions for some acts of insulting/defacing the ballot paper.

It sounds like you know as much about the ballot as you do about Donetsk.

You voted for Thatcher but like Jeremy Corbyn?

What.

What policies of Thatcher's did you like, then? Any of them? Is Thatcher now "good" in the eyes of the RT world view, because she didn't want Germany to re-unify?

Do we think Syrzia has an ulterior motive to shove Greece out of the Eurozone? God knows why but it's the only real answer to this shitshow.

Alyosha ..... re your "Do we think Syrzia has an ulterior motive to shove Greece out of the Eurozone? God knows why but it's the only real answer to this shitshow."

I would suggest they do, and when you look at Greece's energy needs (I posted on the previous page) as imports 80%, there is a financial are Russia could help there, gifting oil in a relatively $$$ weak oil market for producers.

'You voted for Thatcher but like Jeremy Corbyn?'

Absolutely. I am a middle class Tory voter, not etropolitan elite, so I vote for the people. I like them both. I like different things about both.

'What policies of Thatcher's did you like, then?'

Council house sales, low taxation, support for hard work/work ethic, aspirational policies for middle class, high education standards, enterprise, meritocratic principles, chance to get on and achieve etc. Support for working people's aspiration and tearing down of Old Boys' networks and City clubs with the Big Bang etc and attempts to slim the busybody class of nanny state socialist bureaucrats on taxpayer funded salaries. Common sense. Very much like UKIP today.

The RT world view would suit you - it's full of endless programmes on racism, institutional racism, progressive comedians, asylum seekers locked up in Yarlswood by the British state etc etc. I turn all that stuff off.

'Is Thatcher now "good" in the eyes of the RT world view, because she didn't want Germany to re-unify?'

Are you sure you lived in Donetsk? Russia wanted Germany unified, it was Thatcher and Mitterand who didn't, ad on that I disageed with Thatcher, but i take the good with the bad, and she did good things I agree with too.

'Do we think Syrzia has an ulterior motive to shove Greece out of the Eurozone?'

Yes, because I have told you that there a winners and losers and the Greek PPE will be with the winners. The elite want Germany and the Eurozone and the EU weakened and that is what will happen. It's not about the 30 billion which does not conform to international accounting standards, it is geopolitical and about the elite's objectives. Finance is a tool of politics.

"It remains a mystery how highly regarded commentators and institutions continue to refer to a debt-to-GDP ratio of 175%, when on an IPSAS basis the number would be around 70%. "

goodness