The Greek debt crisis....why?

[InDespair]

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

The cheapest and quickest way for Greece to get a new currency is to make their own digital currency based on the Blockchain, with at least 60% pre-mined and assign every Greek citizen their own digital wallet. Then close down the privately owned central bank. Another win for democracy.

'so YOU think that Eurozone government care more about people "watching" Greece, than what their own citizens/voters thing?'

Of course they do. They care about their image to investors and markets across the world more than their own people. That is why they are called a "metropolitan elite" and that is why they adopt modernising "ring-fenced foreign aid" against the wishes of the majority of the public who actually pay for it out of taxation.

What a volte face by the EU :o Suggest a referendum in May and throw toys out of the pram when they actually do hold one. ROFLCOPTER

Claig ... IF you are correct and Greece is bailed out and everything is right with the world, then why is it the end of the EU, as the project would have worked?

Unless just celebrating a Marxist Greek government victory, surely you are not making sense if ANTI EU as this will bring them closer together as due to that 'commitment', those bureaucrats in Brussels (and those footing the bill so 'investing' further in the project) will look to speed up a federal super state?

I have fond memories of when this thread was good. I blame the "No" voters.

DoctorTwo .. from our recent 'gold bug' exchanges, I repeat that I never hit links I cannot identify, as not only do I see the usual blogs of the ignorant as an internet security issue, but to-date I've yet to read one that was even worth that risk.

Who in the EU suggested that Greece should hold a referendum days after they default on the IMF loan and 2-weeks before they default on the ECB loan facilities keeping their banks afloat?

'IF you are correct and Greece is bailed out and everything is right with the world'

Because the Greek people have stuck two fingers up and now the game will move to Spain, Italy and Portugal. The elites in their panic to keep the show on the road will push for faster, deeper integration which will limit national sovereignty. The modernisers and the metropolitan elite will be right behind the bankers and the EU elite and treaty change and new referendums will be required and left wingers and Farage and the good folks in the People's Army will say no and the game will be on.

My position is 'good for them', but I don't think I perhaps have the depth of knowledge of some posters here. Here's what I posted on another thread - essentially I admire the current Greek government because I feel that they are more concerned with freeing their people from an untenable situation than keeping foreign creditors happy. I'm left-leaning, so this makes absolute sense to me - but perhaps I'm missing something?

Faced with option 1: decades of grinding poverty imposed by outside interests with no interest in the welfare of the people of the country, and option 2: decades of grinding poverty, but more autonomy over their own finances and the direction of their country, option 2 seems the far better one.

"I don't get why people are saying they have 'ruined the country'. Greece was in dire trouble anyway because of the vastness of the debt. Only 10% of the bailout fund ever went to the government/people - 90% of it went always to creditors of the country, meaning that Greeks have had a truly shit quality of life for the last 5 years.

They were looking at decades and decades of further punishing misery for their people - what the actual country is made up of, let's not forget - by complying with the unreasonable demands made of them by the EU to pay back an insurmountable debt, caused by irresponsible lending. The interest alone would have been crippling for them.

Greece is in trouble, and the country is in for some tough times, but let's not pretend it was caused by the outcome of this referendum, or by the present government. They are very bloody brave to have done what they have done (and good for them IMO)."

"The cheapest and quickest way for Greece to get a new currency is to make their own digital currency based on the Blockchain, with at least 60% pre-mined and assign every Greek citizen their own digital wallet. Then close down the privately owned central bank. Another win for democracy."

Doctor Two ... do you sit next to claig?

How does a Greek pensioner buy a bag of chickpeas (for their hummus) from a market stall with their "digital wallet"? lolololololololol

ungratefulfecker .... I think that if you go over THIS thread, you will find why other EU taxpayers (Euro 323 billion on the hook) may not want to keep afloat Greece any more, especially once the new government came in and derailed what success they had.

Misery in the EU, possibly more misery outside, but no one can really say that Greek politicians and their banks got them into this mess, and now the Greek people have given Greek politicians a mandate to get them out by digging their heels in.

Lets see what happens this week.

Correction;

"Misery in the EU, possibly more misery outside, but no one can really say that Greek politicians and their banks didn't get them into this mess..."

Isitmebut As I understand it, the mess was caused by a combination of the EU being negligent in lending so much to a fledgling economy with a somewhat financially dodgy previous governments, and then misuse of the money by private banks. Not by this government, who seem to be admirably committed to doing the best possible for the Greek people, who morally can't be forced to pay with their livelihoods for decisions taken at such a high level. The bulk of the responsibility for the mess is with the EU - just as the responsibility for irresponsible lending by banks is with the banks themselves. Yet somehow citizens should be made to suffer for the actions of private companies?

I'm not saying the EU should or shouldn't keep the bailout money flowing - as you say, we'll see. But the debt and the terms of its payment being pursued are immoral, so IMO good for the current government, and good for the Greek people for fighting it.

ungratefulfecker .... Do you know how much the EU loaned to Greece before the crash, as I don't, and who bailed our RBS and Lloyds who's main crime was to over lend to us, our government or someone else's, going on to rack up an annual £150 odd billion budget deficit with resulting 'austerity'?

We can only have £1,500,000.000,000 of national Debt and an annual £80 odd billion budget deficit/overspend, because OUR creditors think that we are good for it.

You say that the Left Wing coalition led by Syriza wants 'the best' for Greece, as if any government anywhere (including those before in Greece) don't want the same.

I asked this question earlier, who FORCED the Greek government and banks (or indeed ours and others) to over spend/lend before the financial crash?

The Greek problem for the last few years is that Syriza painted itself into a corner with electoral promises that meant it could not take all the tough decisions it should have in the early years, and even recently looked to hit the private sector/businesses and THE ROAD to economic growth and debt repayment.

The WAS/IS a great case for Greek debt relief/restructuring etc but Syriza and the bluster/credibility of those within, was NEVER going to get the best terms for Greece as the lenders would have little confidence in their ability to deliver reforms for growth/repayment of debt interest and principle of money ALREADY loaned.

People seem to forget many individual countries within the Eurozone have record unemployment several years after the crash who have their own 'austerity' programme - the OTHER SIDE of the EU balance sheet, not banks and their shareholders who one could argue 'it serves them right'.

The Greek people, like me trying to get a loan, can 'fight' all they like, but the lenders have to have confidence to commit further money, whether answerable to (Eurozone) voters or (bank) shareholders if goes 'south' -with all the current 'known, knowns' of their credit worthiness, which are not good.

Missing loan repayments/deadlines doesn't work on the high street any more than with Brussels bureaucrats, especially for further loans/restructuring when Greek financial muppets are in charge.

Extracts from the link below of the Greek view by an ex U.S. Federal Reserve regional President, better explains what I've been trying to say for the past week on the importance of 'playing the EU/German game' - especially if a borrower needed to restructure existing debt with loan write offs, while handing over more money.

"Why Germany won't back down on Greece: Ex-Fed's Fisher"
www.cnbc.com/id/102811175

"German Chancellor Angela Merkel will take pains to appear she is extending an olive branch to Greece, but she has little room to negotiate after Greeks voted "no" on economic austerity, former Dallas Federal Reserve President Richard Fisher said Monday."

"Ultimately, people report to their own people, and [Merkel] has to be supported by the German parliament and the German people," Fisher told CNBC's "Squawk Box." "There is a limit of tolerance, and she knows what that limit is."

"The country's (Greek) bank are set to run out of money this week, so the ECB may set up some sort of bridge financing, but it must do so in a way that eases pain while maintaining the creditors' negotiating position, Fisher said."

"Rules and discipline are very much part of the German mentality, and the Greeks violated rules and discipline, Fisher said. If Greece leaves the euro zone, the euro currency should increase in value, he said."

"You take one of the weights on the economic progress of the system, even though it's a tiny weight, out of the system. Once you get through the disruption and the liquidity squeeze and whatever short-term market disruptions there may be, economically speaking, it should be a stronger currency by virtue of taking a weak member out."

German government/central bank "rules & discipline" were heavily used against their own population since the 2nd WW, from ultra low inflation targets through to the integration between East & West Germany - so arguably they are not imposing on Greece, what they wouldn't impose on themselves, to both restructure their own economy and grow their economy - should they have GOT themselves in similar shite. IMO.

The 'Brucie Bonus' for Germany being a more anti inflation stronger Euro.

LondonZoo, Putin is not my boss, but I do like him even though I think there will be a war started against him. I am ny own boss. But if anyone was my boss, it would be Farage.

Putin will not be allowed to fund Greece, because Greece is strategic for America.

are you taking the mick, isitmebut????

"should they have got themselves into similar shite"

"german rules and discipline"

any idea of last century european history??

sanfairyanne .... no "mich" unless you see a similarity with the democracy that brought in Hitler before he went badly 'off manifesto message', with what happened in Greece, gorging themselves on cheap EU money with a highly unbalanced economy.

The German Bundesbank anti inflation stance etc was legendary for the decades since loaves of bread took a wheel barrow load of post war currency to purchase, look it up.

'Who will not permit Putin to fund Greece'

America.

Greece is in the US's orbit, they won't allow Greece to be lost. It is strategic because it is the gateway to the Balkans and China and Russia want to use it as a bridgehead into Europe to do trade and suppy oil. America will not allow Russia to sell its oil via Greece and Macedonia and Serbia into Europe. It prefers the Romanian, Bulgarian route as it is more easily controlled.

Also there are huge oil and gas reserves off of Greece and Cyprus and at the end of the day the contracts will probably go to US companies rather than EU or certainly Russian ones.

Germany has been played and the EU is losing influence, but the US is growing in strength.

This is what America wants and so it will happen

"On Saturday, US treasury secretary Jack Lew urged European finance ministers and the International Monetary Fund to continue working together toward a “sustainable solution” to reforms in Greece and its recovery within the eurozone.

Lew spoke by phone with several top officials on Saturday, including the finance ministers of Germany and France and IMF managing director Christine Lagarde, according to a readout of the call provided by the Treasury Department on Sunday.

In those calls, Lew said it was “important for all parties to continue to work to reach a solution, including a discussion of potential debt relief for Greece, in the run up to the 5 July referendum”, according to the readout."

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/28/obama-merkel-talk-greek-debt-crisis

i do see a massive similarity yes although that wasnt what i was referring to as you well know

why was the approach to debt after ww2 so different to the approach to debt after ww1?

because if you drive a country, through punitive reparations in germanys case, to economic devastation, it leads to the rise of extremism and eventual war - see the rise of the nazis

so german debt was forgiven and massive aid given, to many european countries, post ww2. german post war success was built on debt relief

the actions of nazi germany, and lets not forget that post war west germany had many many high level former nazis in positions of power, did not deserve debt relief -
they ran up their debts on a world war and holocaust, even though they had stolen from and asset stripped other countries, including greece

it is utterly ridiculous to forget that and claim they are paragons of economic fortitude. they would have been fucked if theyd had to repay all their debts.

this is an interesting read for anyone interested
medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff

'How can America prevent Putin from funding Greece'

Because it will tell the Greeks not to do it and if they don't play ball they will reap the consequences. They aren't stupid. They will do as they are told. The EU is a paper tiger, but the US isn't.

No one will go with Russia because Russia are not powerful enough to protect them. Russia has its hands full in Ukraine due to the US, it doesn't need any more aggro.