The Greek debt crisis....why?

[InDespair]

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

Under real apitalism, tere is anruptc and insolency law and debts are written off nd the lendes take a hit for irresponsible lending.

What happened here is that the EU servant class of unelected bureaucrats transferred a private bankng liability to a publc debt without asking the people in their usual high-handed way. They thought that would force Greece to pay back the sovereign rather than private debt, avoiding a default on the private loans of their banker masters.

But the Marxist Greek government called their bluff and as Farage said the Greek people showed great courage in ignoring the threats and bullying of Brussels and the entire EU elite servant class.

"GREECE JUST TAUGHT CAPITALISTS A LESSON ABOUT WHAT CAPITALISM REALLY MEANS
...
Debt is not a guarantee of future payments in full. Rather, it is a risk that creditors take, in hopes of maybe being paid tomorrow.

The key word there is "risk."

If you're willing to take the risk, you'll get a premium — in the form of interest.

But the downside of that risk is that you lose your money. And Greece just called Germany's bluff."

uk.businessinsider.com/greece-referendum-result-and-the-meaning-of-debt-2015-7?r=US

Claig ..... you just answered a question "what is the likely effect on those German banks and the German economy? Does anyone know?"

So what is the total non Greek bank exposure_ be they in derivatives or whatever, as banks have had years to prepare for this and as far as I can tell, it is only really Eurozone/IMF governments on the hook - in which case the MAIN concern will be the affect on the whole Eurozone, as money that would have been spent on future Eurozone infrastructure/growth/jobs - has just been peed down a honking large Greek drain.

If Greek defaults, its on Euro 323 bil, what is that as a percentage of the whole Eurozone/EU (as no doubt 'wider' members will be asked to contribute) economy?

claig ... re your last few posts, so you AGREE that on the basis of a 'risk assessment', Greece should get no more money, and that your boss Putin should now take up the slack as they have no poverty there, right?

In Russia can people get mortgages, as I saw a while ago they couldn't - as this may account for your lack of understanding, if a bank ain't going to get paid back, it is 'cheaper' to pull the plug rather than keep pilling it in if there are no prospects of the borrowers situation changing.

Hullygully ..... re your "I said that Yanis had integrity,"

Marvellous, the problem with that is that it neither puts money in banks or digs Greece out of a hole.

In the past Generals might call that 'A Glorious Defeat', being sooooo long on ideology, but short of cash.

The good thing for the people of Greece, is that they (or around 61%) agree with you - which is a shame, as Syriza no longer has the option go the the EU, fall on their swords, and say 'forgive them, they 'NO' not what they do'.

'So what is the total non Greek bank exposure_ be they in derivatives or whatever, as banks have had years to prepare for this'

I doubt they will make that public. Yes the Eurozone is the loser and there are global winners too. The EU is at the beginning of its end phase. The real corporate global powers have decided that it is history. How much public money will be wasted trying to save it by the servant class is anyone's guess.

'so you AGREE that on the basis of a 'risk assessment', Greece should get no more money, and that your boss Putin should now take up the slack as they have no poverty there, right?'

No, because this is political and about Europe. If the elite do not help the Greek people, then other people across Europe will see the real face of the elite and that will have huge political implications and lead to success for Farage, Podemos and other anti EU parties. Germany was bailed out by America after the war with the Marshall Plan.

Putin and China would love to fund Greece, but America is the real giant who will stop them and step in because Greece is of strategic importance to America and it doesn't want it to fall in China and Russia's orbit. Germany has lost and they will be told to do a deal in the end.

America did quantitative easing and told Germany to do it too and Germany held out but in the end they lost.

"Germany has lost the QE fight"

www.businessspectator.com.au/article/2015/1/19/european-crisis/germany-has-lost-qe-fight

Now they are losing in the EU and the EU is losing and that is how it will go in the future.

Russia is heading into recession. Real wages are down 8.4% in the last 12 months. Demand for mortgages has dropped dramatically due to increased interest rates. This has resulted in the government offering home loans in some areas at a subsidised interest rate of 13% in an effort to kick start the market.

The Greeks can tell Germans they will get paid in New-Drachmae

One of the dealers on this thread can clarify, but I don't believe they can (or at least, not unilaterally). Debts are payable in the currency on the face of the note.

in the space of a few months in 1989/90 they all got replaced

Quite. They were replaced within a few months of Gorbachev renouncing the Brezhnev doctrine. East Germany survived so long as it was bankrolled by the Russian central bank and its government secured by the Red Army. Remove those two, and it collapsed. Greece has neither to start with.

'I am baffled as to how this Greek Soviet Socialist Republic things it can achieve anything worthwhile.'

They are going to be offered a better deal. They faced down all the threats and bullying and now the EU elite will have to end their intransigence and offer a better deal. That is a victory of David against Goliath, of the people against the bankers, of the people against austerity, of the people against the elites.

"EU project is now dying. It’s fantastic to see the courage of the Greek people in the face of political and economic bullying from Brussels.

twitter.com/nigel_farage

An economic basket case Russia has just won, whether they support Greece or not, as cracks in the EU 'project' is what they want to see - and why they are prepared to pay people on the internet to promote it - hopefully better elsewhere, with more short post facts, rather than long mantras.

Claig .. my old Conservative mucker, that last post is so full of rambling anti capitalist 'stuff', it isn't worth addressing e.g. when did the U.S. do its QE, and when did Germany do QE?

P.S. We didn't just have a WW, we had a financial crash, in which Greece due to its own actions, came off worse than most, so who gives a hoot about the Marshall Plan.

The Greeks can tell Germans they will get paid in New-Drachmae

What will be the Exchange Rate of converting into the Euro equivalent as it won't be pretty ... as a 'NO' I'll repeat an earlier link.

”Printing the Drachma: The Messy Future of a Post-Euro Greece”
www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-04/printing-the-drachma-the-messy-future-of-a-post-euro-greece

” Introducing a new currency is no small feat. Recent cases - East Germany’s adoption of the deutsche mark, the Czech-Slovak divorce of 1993, and the creation of the euro itself - benefited from years of careful planning and broad popular support. If Greece were to abandon the euro, it would have neither.”

'so who gives a hoot about the Marshall Plan.'

America does. It is not stupid enough to pay for it. It wants Germany to pay for it. Germany doesn't want to. But they have lost the game and they will eventually have no choice or they will break the Eurozone. Germany will pay and become weaker in the process. They have been totally outplayed and cut down to size.

"America’s dearest hope is that the management of the euro crisis can be subcontracted to Germany."

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0ec863ec-3e30-11e1-ac9b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3f3vtacQT

"A Marshall Plan for Greece

The spectacular failure of “expansionary austerity” policies has set Greece on a path worse than the Great Depression, according to a study from the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College.

Using their newly-constructed macroeconomic model for Greece, the Levy scholars recommend a recovery strategy similar to the Marshall Plan to increase public consumption and investment.

“A Marshall-type recovery plan directed at public consumption and investment is realistic and has worked in the past,” the authors of the report said."

blogs.reuters.com/macroscope/2013/07/30/a-marshall-plan-for-greece/

I think there will be some kind of deal, mainly because no one can face the alternative. No one has a plan.

Out of casual interest, what would happen if Greece simply used the printing press and plates that it has for Euros, and printed a few billion of them to prop up its banking sector?

They'd be "forgeries" but they'd be indistinguishable from "real" Euros.

'What deal do you think they will get?'

I don't know, but it will be better than what the elite offered them first time.

Claig ..... "The Marshall Plan directed at public consumption and investment" for Greece has major flaws.

The former got Greece into their bank/debt problems, while a populist Marxist government seems incapable of understanding why keep hitting businesses rather than government spending when imposing 'austerity' - does not provide any economic growth, never mind a sustainable platform for the Greek economy to dig itself out of its own incompetent hole - so becomes an EU 'money pit'.

Claig .... why do you think Greece will get a better deal, the Greeks sez so?

Within the Eurozone and their taxpayers, what do you think is happening re the media and emails to individual government officials/MPs - major support FOR the continual bailout from their electorate????

Isit, I refer you to the wisdom of the President of the United States

"Mr Obama has previously indicated his support for the Leftist government, calling for a fast and equitable solution to the country's debt crisis.

"You cannot keep on squeezing countries that are in the midst of depression," the US president said in February following Syriza's election victory."

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11534402/IMF-warns-Greek-negotiations-are-not-working-as-Athens-ramps-up-default-threats.html

We're not used to that type of straight-talk and common sense here under the modernisers, as alas Farage has little influence so far.

'why do you think Greece will get a better deal'

Because this is politics and the whole world is watching and the careers of servants are on the line if people across Europe start voting for anti EU parties and anti austerity parties. The sooner they solve this the easier the servant class can sleep in their quarters.

"Out of casual interest, what would happen if Greece simply used the printing press and plates that it has for Euros, and printed a few billion of them to prop up its banking sector?"

The Greeks COULD carry on using their old Euros domestically pre Drachma, even print more, but without the support of the ECB its not physically worth the paper its printed on - but better than an IOU note that wouldn't have a very long life in circulation.

A money note basically promises 'the bearer' that its central bank can honour that note - and any Greek issued promissory note, clearly can not do that - so for Greek citizens (similar any Third World Country) if they cannot differentiate between real and dodgy Euros, there needs to be a 'black market' in U.S. Dollars if they want their cash to keep value. IMO

"Greek referendum no vote signals huge challenge to eurozone leaders

Victory by Syriza party of 60% to 40% in polarising referendum presents nightmare for eurozone elites, particularly German chancellor Angela Merkel"

www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/05/greek-referendum-no-vote-signals-huge-challenge-to-eurozone-leaders

If tis not a ictory ofthe people against the elites by good old democracy, hen i don't know what is. The elites' taxpayer funded sumptuous eals have been spoil, they are throwing mobile phoes around the room, the name Varoufakis is being used as a swear word, panic is in the air, Merkel is getting ready to rush to Paris to speak to Hollande.

Servants are in fight or flight mode and the people, and Farage, are laughing.

They are worried about contagion and further referendums across Europe and a popular revolt of the masses against austerity and the bankers led by populists and left wing parties.

They told the Greek people to vote for austerity; the Greek people told them to stuff it.

They called Varoufakis all the names under the sun, Varoufakis said he wears "the creditors' loathing with pride".

claig ... so YOU think that Eurozone government care more about people "watching" Greece, than what their own citizens/voters thing? Guffaw.

THIS GREEK PROBLEM did not happen overnight, the WORLD knows that, and most citizens within that world know a high street bank wouldn't put up with their Syriza government shite, never mind those they need countless Euro billions MORE from.

B

Claig ..... why are you repeating the same RT type 'victory' propaganda on every page - will you eat pooh when it doesn't work, or are you just paid per post so job done?