The Greek debt crisis....why?

[InDespair]

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

'There was no private meeting with Obama.'

Thanks, ph47, I was wrong about that. I didn't follow up by googling those reports.

i thought bankers studied any old thing at top universities before becoming bankers? do they actually study banking??

LOL. It couldn't possibly be because he is a jackass who called them "terrorists"

That's because they are financial terrorists, saving their former employers, the private banks, from going bust by nationalising their losses. Why should any taxpayer pay for risks taken by private corporations?

claig .... Now 'the U.S. runs the world'. 'Germany has lost', more Varoufakis hero worship and more anti EU 'servant class' .... keep it coming comrade.

P.S. Show me the IMF link that says "Greek debt (around Euros 323 bil) should be written off"?

There is some half decent factual comments on this thread, so adding post after post of bullcrap NOW rather than debate them at the time, adds nothing.

'Just out of curiosity, what exactly do you think bankers study before getting hired to work in financial institutions such as banks?'

I thought they studied which banks offer the biggest bonus and salary with the minimum of moral hazard.

'P.S. Show me the IMF link that says "Greek debt (around Euros 323 bil) should be written off"? '

Are you unable to use google?

'There is some half decent factual comments on this thread'

And none of it was by you, so what's your point?

Greece's problems were caused by bad Greek governance, just as the UK's financial crash was worse as our government relaxed banking regulation - it happens, the people who elect governments PICK UP THE BILL.

In the UK we were going to have a Labour nice but lacking economics 101 ex postman as Shadow/Chancellor whose only experience in finance was delivering bills, but ended up with a geezer with a History Degree - but whoever is was, they would be put in post by the government that won the election.

In Greece, and their business illiterate government likely to impose a 30% deposit 'haircut' on figures over Euro 8,000 - who do they think will be most affected by that raid, 'the citizens', or businesses needing that money for salaries/cash flow?

More economic 'growf' ideas, socialist style.

I thought bankers studied smoke and mirrors, or is it bistromathics??

Yanis pointed out the Emperor was naked. No one wants to see a naked Emperor, least of all those who hide behind his pretend gilded robes.

You can call him "open-shirted" "motorbike riding" "Marxist" (like that's an insult haha), but could you point out where he has lied?

Unlike the EU leaders.

Claig ... I'd suggest to you that the IMF said that there should be SOME debt forgiveness, not the fricking LOT, which makes a big difference to where you were trying to go in your Russian blame game.

If the IMF let them off their 10% debt exposure to Greece, fine, but even that would not be enough.

A 'restructuring of Greece's debt COULD be to extend the maturity date, but if the EU has no faith in the Greek government not to pan-hole the economy within a few more years, what is the point - so economic competence is key.

While you have been sleeping through this thread, the PROBLEM of debt forgiveness and throwing more good money after bad, is for the taxpayers of the other 18 Eurozone members as Syriiza have not IMPROVED the economic/financial situation they inherited - do we really have to go over old ground, or can you not spend more time reading what has ALREADY been said - and THEN add new ideas rather than incorrect sweeping statements?

I didn't say the whole lot. But Tsipras used the helpful statement of the IMF 3 or 4 days before the referendum and the EU servant class was fuming at the timing.

'throwing more good money after bad, is for the taxpayers of the other 18 Eurozone members'

That was done without asking for the democratic consent of the European people and was a decision taken by an unelected servant and banker.

This is a huge geopolitical game and the EU is the loser.

"Whether Greece votes yes or no, the euro cannot survive in its current form

Best case scenario? The EU will undergo years of painful convulsions, precipitating a new treaty that imposes greater centralisation and restrictions on the fiscal independence of nation states
...
Sunday’s vote may be too close to call, but we already know that there will be no winners from the referendum, only losers."

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11717502/Whether-Greece-votes-yes-or-no-the-euro-cannot-survive-in-its-current-form.html

The last line is wrong. Of course there are winners. But the losers are the EU, the servants and Germany. If they try to impose greater centralisation, with Farage on their tails, the entire EU may collapse.

Hullygully ... what bit are you missing where Greece is currently on its knees and the EU have their futures (goolies) in THEIR hands?

There has been NO Greek win, what has changed since Saturday other than there is LESS money in the Greek banks that did the same thing as ours leading up to the financial crash; they lent too much, so their governments responsibility as regulator/overseer???

BTW are Syriza and the main faces on top of open shirts not Marxists, how do they describe themselves as clearly what was reported a few years back is wrong?

P.S. Please could you tell us where all the Greek bank money went, needing to be replaced/recapitalized by troika loans?

Claig .... Syriza only started looking for 'deals' after deadlines had gone and THEY,out of the blue, said it is up to the Greek people to vote on the EU package that would had expired - please keep up with the time line before blaming anyone else other than Greek politicians.

That is NOT good governance, as this should have happened months ago, NOT once the ECB was unable to keep pumping more money into Greek banks, as their own government had run out of 'bluff' time.

I didn't say the Greeks had "won", there can be no "winning."

I said that Yanis had integrity, and as many insults as you hurl about and as much neo-lib frothing as you do, it doesn't change the fact that he is a better person than all the EU leaders put together. He has told the truth and shamed the devil and that's why they hate him.

All the money went into the pockets of the ruling Greek elite at the time, did you really not know that? How passing strange.

On another note, which does make me laugh: Merkel and Hollande are having a meeting.

Dave's having a cuppa with George.

'Please could you tell us where all the Greek bank money went, needing to be replaced/recapitalized by troika loans?'

As usual, just as with the "foreign aid" game, it was returned to "consultants", coprorations, arms manufacturers, building contractors etc of the donor countries.

"German 'hypocrisy' over Greek military spending has critics up in arms"
...
"Just under 15% of Germany's total arms exports are made to Greece, its biggest market in Europe," Papadimoulis said, reeling off figures from a scruffy armchair in his party's parliamentary office. "Greece has paid over €2bn (£1.6bn) for submarines that proved to be faulty and which it doesn't even need.

"It owes another €1bn as part of the deal. That's three times the amount Athens was asked to make in additional pension cuts to secure its latest EU aid package."

According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (Sipri), France is not far behind. Some 10% of its total arms sales go to Greece"

www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis

Germany's economic boom was based on a low Euro which they would not have benefitted from with the true value of the Deustsch Mark, and German and French banks made risky loans to Greece which then imported German and French cars and goods which kept the German and French economies going.

Claig .... the Euro will continue, even if it goes back to just the six original members, or some two or three tier basis.

What this does mean going forward, is that the EU/ECB bureaucratic machine will be a lot tighter on new members and existing members STICKING to admission and annual EU rules on how they should be financially running their countries - so that 'austerity' (financial prudence) is imposed earlier, before this Greek type pooh hits the fan.

P.S. Best Scotland gets its deficits in order if an independent one still wants to swap Westminster's guidelines for draconian EU ones.

SideOrderofChips Spain never got a bailout so I don't see how they could do "the same as Greece".

A BBC feature yesterday showed that German banks hold a lot of Greek debt (maybe money lent to buy German goods ). If these loans go bad, what is the likely effect on those German banks and the German economy? Does anyone know?
Tia

When the servants realised that the game was up and that the Greeks couldn't pay back the risky bank loans made by the bankers, who studied banking theory in univeristies before pocketing their bonuses, the servants decided to transfer the debt to the European taxpaying public so that the bankers could keep pocketing their bonuses without suffering a default.

They then used the pressure of sovereign governments to try and pressure the Greek people to pay back the debt to bail out the bankers, who had studied hard at universities.

But finally after years of austerity and a decline in GDP as great as America suffered in the Great Depression, the Greeks elected a radical left wing government who outsmarted the bankers, who studied hard at university, and their political servants and called their bluff.

Now there is panic as Merkel rushes to Paris instead of Hollande rushing to Berlin as the world waits to see the fate of the Eurozone and even possibly the EU.

'the EU/ECB bureaucratic machine will be a lot tighter on new members and existing members STICKING to admission and annual EU rules on how they should be financially running their countries - so that 'austerity' (financial prudence) is imposed earlier'

They will try that, but democracy will intervene. The Greek people have given an example to all of Europe. People will begin to reject more austerity, Labour leaders who mention austerity will be booed on hustings by Labour suoporters, unions will vote for real left wingers, left wing parties will see that the bankers were a paper tiger and they will challenge the EU elites and the strain will break the EU.

Claig ... so in a nutshell Greek government and banking money was spent on Greece, yes?

As some on here seems to think that Greek (or any other) government are not responsible for their own banks lending, even when those governments talking over their banks liabilities in order to keep their domestic economy afloat - have spent money like a drunken sailor in a brothel.

The EU is NOT some guaranteed safety net for individual members who have dug their own holes, and then expect other nations taxpayers to bail them out - that is clear now, if wasn't before.

' what is the likely effect on those German banks and the German economy? Does anyone know?'

No one really knows because a lot of the risk is off balance sheet potential derivative losses, which is why Varoufakis beat the bankers by calling their bluff.

He has now stepped down to save their blushes and now they will have to negotiate a deal to avoid the unknown derivative losses becoming evident.

claig ... if YOU had a honking great overdraft, you are only just servicing it, and THEN went to your bank and said 'my family has said that you have to give me more money, otherwise I'll stamp my feet and won't leave 'til I get it' - how would the claig home democracy work there?

What is the difference?

If a person/country is a bad risk due to the way they have/will handle their affairs, there will be no more money and you/Greece will be forcibly removed from the bank?EU.

All the Greek people did on Sunday, is give their politicians the OK to dig their heels in and that they are prepared to take the consequences.

If anything, that helps the Eurozone to do what they have to do to protect their own taxpayers, not throw good money after bad to those who vote in dodgy politicians.

'As some on here seems to think that Greek (or any other) government are not responsible for their own banks lending'

Of course governments are responsible for their borrowing or lending just as Cameron is responsible for our "ring-fenced foreign aid" budget of billions, but there is nothing the people can do about it because the government doesn't ask them. When governments fund charidees with taxpayer money, they don't ask the people for their OK.

But this Greek government has called the bankers' bluff, and as Paul Mason on Channel 4 News rightly said, Renzi and other European leaders will now go to Merkel and say "what have you done? 60% of the Greek people voted for Marxists" instead of succumbing to the threats of the bankers and the political class.

Middle class and Conservative Greeks also voted for the Marxists and they all called the EU elite's bluff. What the EU elite does now will determine the success of the entire EU project.

Farage has said "the EU project is dying". The elite will now try their usual game of faster, deeper integration, but they will be up against the people and the anti EU politicians. The show has only just begun.