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Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito guilty verdict annulled by Italian court

122 replies

DuelingFanjo · 27/03/2015 21:57

Guardian live updates

Always thought they were completely innocent and often argued their case on here.

Feel very sorry for the Kercher family who have been dragged through years of shit.

Shame that Guede will be out soon.

OP posts:
APlaceOnTheCouch · 28/03/2015 11:24

Flora yy I agree there are solicitors who completely disagree on this case across the world. I was just countering the post upthread that said they wouldn't have been convicted in the UK. It's yet another aspect of this case that has been debated hotly on both sides.

As I've done from the start, I respect the Italian legal process. It's why I think the court papers will be interesting and I hope they will be conclusive in a way that brings the Kerchers some peace.

I'd imagine the worse outcome would be if they imply there was another 'unknown' attacker or/and fudge the judgement in a way similar to the Scottish not-proven verdict.

prh47bridge · 28/03/2015 11:25

MK's DNA was found on the knife in RS's flat

The test was invalid. Precautions against contamination were not taken. The laboratory was not certified for carrying out low copy number DNA testing. The correct procedures for carrying out the test were not followed. There is therefore no valid scientific evidence that MK's DNA was on the knife. Also if, as the police claim, this was the murder weapon it is too large to have caused the wound if thrust in up to the hilt. However, the entry wound is consistent with a knife being thrust in up to the hilt. The prosecution's explanation is that Knox was holding the knife by the blade rather than by the handle when inflicting the fatal blow but managed to do so without injuring herself.

DNA was found in Fillomena's room

They found Kercher's DNA with a very weak profile for Knox. They shared an apartment. What other explanation do you need?

MK had to have been held down

That is the prosecution case. Many experts have said that the injuries are consistent with Kercher being rapidly overwhelmed by a violent attack.

The fake burglary

If it was fake. The evidence for the burglary being fake is at best weak. Contrary to your statement it has NOT been accepted as false by all sides.

The confessions

A common feature of miscarriages of justice sadly. At no point did Knox confess to murder. She did implicate Lumumbu. Her statements were inadmissible as evidence due to the circumstances in which they were obtained. As is common in miscarriages of justice, the statements were consistent with the police's theory at the time they were made but did not match the facts of the case.

The call to the police not being made, but calls to Seattle and RS's sister were

If we accept their version of events neither Knox nor Sollecito knew that Kercher was dead at this stage. They had found the front door to the flat open, windows broken and blood in the bathroom. They had attempted to call Kercher and Filomena. After Knox's mother advised them to call the police they did so. Perhaps many people would have called the police first but I don't see anything particularly suspicious in this.

The mobile phones and the bomb threat

You are aware that the bomb threat was entirely unrelated? And that the mobile phones belonged to Kercher? Are you suggesting that Knox and Sollecito discarded Kercher's phones then rang one of them to alert people to its location?

RG's conviction is that he was not acting alone, can he appeal now

No. He was convicted of murder. That conviction stands. The forensic evidence clearly shows he was present whereas there is no forensic evidence placing Knox and Sollecito at the scene.

The prosecution theory is something like this:

Guede frequented the downstairs apartment and had a passing acquaintance with Kercher, Knox and Sollecito. Kercher invites Guede to the apartment. Guede defecates in the bathroom but does not flush the toilet. Knox and Sollecito return to the apartment. Knox discovers the unflushed toilet. Tensions between Knox and Kercher over cleaning the apartment come to a head. The row escalates into physical violence. Kercher is stripped. Guede restrains and sexually assaults Kercher while Knox and Sollecito attack her with two knives. One of the knives is Sollecito's penknife (as far as I am aware this was a new theory advanced at the latest hearing with no forensic evidence in support). The other is a kitchen knife from Sollecito's apartment (sometimes referred to as the double-DNA knife) which, it is alleged, Knox carried with her for protection. Note that there is no evidence for Knox carrying this knife. It is pure invention by the prosecution to explain how the knife got to the murder scene. The attack continues until Kercher is dead, the fatal blow being inflicted by Knox using the kitchen knife which she is holding by the blade. Some or all of the three then stage the scene to look like a break-in. Guede leaves. Knox and Sollecito clean the room, moving the body away from the wardrobe and removing all forensic evidence of their own involvement but leaving significant evidence of Guede's involvement. At some point Sollecito removes a shoe and sock, gets blood on his foot then hops to the bathroom where he leaves a bloody footprint on the bathmat. Knox and Sollecito then return to his apartment taking the knife with them. They clean his apartment with bleach. Presumably they dispose of the clothes they were wearing as well since no forensic evidence was found on any of their clothing to link them with the murder. However they do not dispose of the kitchen knife. According to the prosecution this was because it was on the inventory for Sollecito's apartment and therefore if they disposed of it they would have had to replace it.

The defence theory:

The forensic evidence places two people at the scene of the murder - Guede and Kercher. There is no forensic evidence placing anyone else at the scene. Guede murdered Kercher. The bloody footprint on the bathmat is a problem since it appears to be Sollecito's and, even if it is Guede's, no credible mechanism for its presence has been presented. But, as already highlighted, this footprint is a problem for the prosecution as well.

NotDavidTennant · 28/03/2015 11:30

Basically, a couple who had only been together for short time decided to hook up with a man they barely knew and play a sex game with the women of the couple's unwilling flatmate (who they didn't know well either) and that went wrong and ended up as murder.

And if that sounds a touch far-fetched to you, bear in mind that the women of the couple is a little odd, and therefore clearly a deeply suspicious individual.

If that isn't an open and shut case, then what is? Hmm

Floraclare · 28/03/2015 11:39

Great summary prh47bridge

I don't think any conclusion can be made about the bath at - most experts that have looked at it have concluded that it is impossible to say who it belongs to and could possibly be either Guede or Sollecitto. It was just too distorted to make any conclusion

I think what happened is that Guede had blood on his trousers, went to the bathroom to wash it off in the shower - took his shoe off whilst washing trouser leg, which led to making the footprint. Guede admitted leaving with wet trousers

CaffeLatteIceCream · 28/03/2015 11:47

sashh

You are very much mistaken about pretty much everything. You (and you are not alone) are convicting a person based on your own misunderstanding of the facts. People deserve better than that.

MK's DNA was NOT found on the kitchen knife. AK's was found on the handle - hardly surprising since she used it to cut up vegetables. No blood or DNA for ANYONE was found on the blade.

That MK had to be held down is pure conjecture and not supported by any evidence at all. Are you seriously suggesting men can't stab women to death without the help of others? There's an unfortunately large amount of other cases proving that that's crap.

To take your claim seriously we have to believe that the two people who held MK down managed not to leave a single one of their hairs, skin cells or any trace of DNA when they were doing it. They also managed to avoid getting any of MK's blood on their clothes or feet. In this "fight" neither of them received any injuries of their own. RG, conversely, had knife wounds on his hands and bruises on his body. The room was awash with his DNA, finger and palm prints. NOTHING from anyone else, let alone RS and and AK.

The prosecutions explanation? They cleared up their own blood and DNA and left Guede's. Too stupid for words.

What "fake burglary"? It was Guede who broke the window. His footprint was found next to the broken glass. Are we to believe that he raped and murdered MK, left his blood and semen all over her and her room, then "faked" a burglary? The idea that the glass wouldn't have fallen in the way it did if broken from the outside has been thoroughly debunked by tests.

And if AK "faked the burglary" - why? Again, she's taken the trouble to leave RG's DNA & blood everywhere (and his shit in the toilet) and then wanted to cover up...what? That she opened the door to him? Makes absolutely no sense.

The swab from Filomena's room showed mixed DNA from MK and AK. Not blood, by the way, just a minute amount of their DNA. Similar findings were all over the flat - as would be expected when people cohabitate.

What "confessions"? She never confessed. She apparently told a tale that was rambling, incoherent and, above all, not true. She talked about dreams and visions and she implicated a man who was not there. People who confess, do exactly that. At that stage the police wanted it to be Lumbaba and Amanda was manipulated to an appalling degree. She was questioned for 50 hours without a lawyer and without the interviews being taped or recorded in anyway. An int

RS's sister WAS the police, that's why he phoned her. At that stage, they thought it was a burglary, nothing more.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the "bomb threat" had anything to do with the murder. That the phones were found in the garden is almost certainly a coincidence. Unless you genuinely believe that after murdering a girl, one of the three managed to source the number of a complete stranger, call in a false bomb threat and then deliberately leave the two phones in the garden?????? To what possible end?

Sorry, but if you are going to accuse two people of murder, at least make the effort to get your facts right.

PacificDogwood · 28/03/2015 12:42

There has been so much shoddy reporting and unsubstantiated gossip on the internet.

This.

trixymalixy · 28/03/2015 13:00

*To take your claim seriously we have to believe that the two people who held MK down managed not to leave a single one of their hairs, skin cells or any trace of DNA when they were doing it. They also managed to avoid getting any of MK's blood on their clothes or feet. In this "fight" neither of them received any injuries of their own. RG, conversely, had knife wounds on his hands and bruises on his body. The room was awash with his DNA, finger and palm prints. NOTHING from anyone else, let alone RS and and AK.

The prosecutions explanation? They cleared up their own blood and DNA and left Guede's. Too stupid for words.*

This is the key thing for me. How anyone can say that Knox and Sollecito murdered her when there is virtually no trace of them in the room, but the room is awash with Guede's DNA is beyond me.

sashh · 28/03/2015 17:42

MK's DNA was NOT found on the kitchen knife. AK's was found on the handle - hardly surprising since she used it to cut up vegetables. No blood or DNA for ANYONE was found on the blade.

The knife that someone else on here has called the 'double DNA knife', why would they do that if there was no DNA on it?

She was questioned for 50 hours without a lawyer and without the interviews being taped or recorded in anyway

Witness interviews are not routinely recorded in this country or Italy. How exactly do you fit 50hours questioning between 10pm and 5.45 am? That was the time she signed the translated and typed account.

Have a look at the court documents, the witness questioning in court of the interpreter who you claim was not there.

sanfairyanne · 28/03/2015 17:50

why would someone on a parenting forum with no in depth knowledge call it a 'double dna' knife if there was no dna on it???
seriously?

DuelingFanjo · 28/03/2015 19:20

It just says so much about how flawed this case was when you see people repeating untruths about the evidence when claiming their guilt.

OP posts:
YonicScrewdriver · 28/03/2015 19:49

The right decision, IMO.

Schoolaroundthecorner · 28/03/2015 19:57

Witness interviews are not routinely recorded in this country or Italy. How exactly do you fit 50hours questioning between 10pm and 5.45 am? That was the time she signed the translated and typed account.

That was the final interrogation wasn't it? I read that in total she'd been interviewed for 43hrs in 5 days. Also why interview someone overnight? Surely an indication you weren't concerned with exhausting them, perhaps you were even intending to do so.

sanfairyanne · 28/03/2015 20:04

ah yes
5.45 am
a typical time to get a witness statement Shock

TheOneWiththeNicestSmile · 28/03/2015 20:38

I thought all witness interviews were recorded in this country?

prh47bridge · 28/03/2015 22:30

The knife that someone else on here has called the 'double DNA knife', why would they do that if there was no DNA on it?

The original forensic tests found evidence of DNA from both Knox and Kercher on the knife, hence the reference to it as the "double DNA knife". The forensic tests were examined independently by court appointed experts following the original conviction. These experts found that there was absolutely no scientific basis for the statement that the knife had Kercher's DNA on it. Procedures to avoid contamination were not followed. The tests were not carried out correctly. And a number of statements made by the prosecution expert were not even supported by the results of the tests she did carry out.

I note that you talk about Kercher's DNA being found in Sollecito's apartment in an earlier post. The only evidence of Kercher's DNA in Sollecito's apartment was on the alleged double DNA knife. As I have pointed out previously procedures to avoid contamination were not followed and the tests carried out on the knife were not valid as the wrong process was used. There was therefore no evidence of Kercher's DNA in Sollecito's apartment. And the only DNA found on the knife using reliable testing methods was Knox's.

Witness interviews are not routinely recorded in this country or Italy

The Italian courts criticised the conduct of the interview with Knox on the grounds that, despite the fact she was being treated as a suspect for a serious offence, no recording was made and no lawyer was assigned. In the UK the police would have been in breach of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 due to their failure to record the interviews.

How exactly do you fit 50hours questioning between 10pm and 5.45 am?

The almost 50 hours figure is the total amount of time for which Knox was questioned without a lawyer present. The prosecution agree with this figure. The first interview started at 3pm on 2nd November and lasted until 6am 3rd November. There was then further questioning on the afternoon of 3rd November and again on 4th November and 5th November. The times you give are for the final interview which started on 5th November and continued to 6th November. So a total of almost 50 hours spread over 4 days but with a significant proportion of the interrogations taking place in the early hours of the morning. There can be little doubt that she was exhausted when she gave her statement. The judges also pointed out that she neither understood nor spoke Italian well and that the interpreter assisted the police rather than simply translating.

You continue to attach great significance to statements that the Italian courts ruled as inadmissible due to the way they were obtained. You also seem keen to deny things that the prosecution accepted as true.

GettingFiggyWithIt · 29/03/2015 08:10

I am pleased they were acquitted. I do not believe they were involved in the murder. Rudy acted alone.
I do believe however, that they were inconsistent in their testimony. I think they were scared regarding drug taking and being accused of contaminating the scene.

blowinahoolie · 29/03/2015 20:35

"I think she has got away with murder."

I think you'll find these kind of statements are not allowed on this forum. A thread was just deleted yesterday for defamatory remarks.

Seriously, why are there still threads going about this?!

APlaceOnTheCouch · 30/03/2015 09:34

blowinahoolie did you report the thread?

imo it being deleted would probably be for the best. There's a lot of conjecture and knowledge gleaned from the less concerned with fact checking and more concerned with circulation figures media being presented as fact so perhaps a thread deletion would be best.

Although taking into account the concerted pr campaign that has surrounded this case, another thread may appear fairly quickly.

YonicScrewdriver · 30/03/2015 09:44

Aplace, there have been many extensive threads in the past around the other trials. There are over 40 books whi h cover things like the knife. The verdict is final so no contempt of court can happen. I doubt MNHQ will delete the thread though they may delete posts

blowinahoolie · 30/03/2015 09:44

APlaceOnTheCouch I don't know how you ask to delete a thread, only how to report posts Blush How do you go about it?

The other thread was getting out of hand, and it got deleted or reported by several posters and that was enough to warrant it being deleted due to the content.

Really surprised MNHQ linked to this thread though! What's the point?!

LotusLight · 30/03/2015 09:46

PH is right above. Also posters were not in court and are basing their guilty views on "evidence" in the press.

I am very pleased they have been cleared. I hope they win compensation.

blowinahoolie · 30/03/2015 09:46

It doesn't matter what title you give the thread surrounding the death of MK, posters will still post inappropriate comments which may come across as defamatory.

It's too emotive a topic and causes nothing but bother.

DrankSangriaInThePark · 30/03/2015 09:50

Blimey hoolie, you've done a volte face in the 2 days since you first started posting about AK and RS.

Which is good, obviously. Surprising nonetheless. Are you like a zealous ex-smoker now then?

Giulia Bongiorno has confirmed that probably Raffaele Sollecito will be asking for compensation. Presumably for the 4 yrs of wrongful imprisonment.

YonicScrewdriver · 30/03/2015 09:56

Report any post and suggest the whole thread goes. It won't happen unless MNHQ believe it's getting very out of hand.

blowinahoolie · 30/03/2015 10:01

It's already got out of hand by people quoting media reports about the trial, sensationalist reporting. I haven't done this personally but I really don't think it's wise after it's quite plain that they've been acquitted now. It's done.