muslim people

[zippadee]

i am alarmed at the amount of anti muslim rhetoric that is being bandied around. particularly by the government. what is going on?
i am a white , non muslim , what does everyone think about this?

"They're not kicking up a fuss, they're not going to the papers saying look at me I'm being discriminated against, they're going to find a more suitable tolerant school."

They'd be well within their rights to kick up a fuss imo. This is outright discrimination, it's against the law full stop. Sikhs and Jews are protected under race discrimination legislation (hence the hooha about religious discrimination because Muslims aren't, not being recognised as a distinct race under race relations legislation).

I can understand why people don't kick up a fuss though. Your friends obviously just want to get a school for their child that will be suitable for him and where he will be happy. I do get irritated with people who appear to think that every muslim/ black person/ woman who goes to a tribunal is just a money-grabbing troublemaker (although of course some will be). They have no concept of the stress and pressure involved in entering and continuing a legal battle. It's a nightmare which no-one should have to undergo.

Hi scary - I have another friend who told me she deeply regretted her Afghan husband going to a discrimination tribunal because she thought the stress contributed to the heart attack that killed him - deprived her of the man she loved & her children of a lovely dad.

I do get annoyed at shit stirring for the sake of it.

Yes you're right, she would have a legal case-you're also right that she wants to find a school where her boy will fit in & be happy. More fool the school that couldn't accept him, he's bright, considerate & apparently he's a stonking rugby player .

In one sense it appears that 'tolerance', that treasured characteristic of 'Britishness, has gone out the window. Try driving in a rush hour without getting abuse. In another, the long period to which this country has been a democracy may mean that we are now here today able to have such debates without launching into street warfare.

Having said that, there is the media in the middle increasingly desperate to sell newspapers to a dwindling readership, stoking things up. Whatever...with intolerance we all lose.

Yes absolutely right what you say about democracy. One of the first things you learn when you study politics is that "democracies don't go to war with each other" - true NOT with each other, but they seem to be quite happy causing mayhem and bloodshed in less privileged, non-democratic societies.

Yellowrose; Yes, true. Guess G & T's Africa Commission (for e.g.) is an exercise in blatant hypocrasy then. Why am I not surprised.

I think it is time for Muslim men to start veiling themselves in the name of equality. After all, women too have lustful thoughts and desires.

Read this recently on Irshad Manji's website and the last paragraph sums up my feelings exactly.

WGW - Yes well Africa is an excellent example of hypocrisy. I rest assurred that imperialism is not dead !

thanks for that link speedymama, very good article and quite right. Rare to see so much reason in print.

It is very sad that when Muslim scholars, writers, etc, like those mentioned in the article, try to have an open, objective debate that challenges Islamic teaching, belief etc, they have to go into hiding because of death threats from the howling, ignorant, self appointed guardians of Islam.

not read all the thread but in the interests of free speech see no problem in current public debate over Islamic veils. I agree with Blair that they're a barrier, indeed as a woman I find them offensive, that's my opinion and i'm sure that of many women who feel they can speak openly.
OTOH such debate should be no excuse for offensive typecasting, being racist etc etc. I hope moderate Muslims start to speak out more and gain more of a voice with government. Thank god for people like Yasmin Alibi-Brown (sp?). Also interesting article in yesterdy's ST by Trevor Philips.

totally agree speedymama

Rantohills, see what you are saying but don't u think this "debate" cld just stir up lots of bad feeling? I think its quite sinister the way the govern are banging on about this now. I'm not muslim bytw but why shld they constantly hve to defend themselves and assure everyone they are not terroists? This could well be another case of spinmeisters trying to take attention away from other things like the fiasco in Iraq/Afghanistan or rising gun and knife crime in the UK.

The case about the teaching assistant was really blown out of all proportion. IMO it was just a practical issue, most reasonable people would accept that you can't hve yr face covered if teaching. End of story.... If there is an increase in racist attacks then this will be partly down to the govern's desire to "spark a debate". If other people want to wear veils etc then fine, as long as it does not interfere with their jobs etc. Obviously they will have to remove them when at airport securty etc etc but presumably this is what happens in Iran/Saudi now?

it could stir up bad feeling, but it shouldn't. In a free society no group should escape scrutiny and every issue should be subject to debate.

Most Muslims I know don't even wear a veil - some wear headscarves, others western dress. IMO the actual veil (as opposed to headscarf) is a marker of cultural separation which can be inflammatory/offputting to others. Not good for an integrated society.

The debate over veils should be very separate from that over Muslim terrorims, OTOH it could be argued that the seeds are sown from the same source.

I think the problem is that for years, it was utterly unacceptable to debate this sort of issue - if anyone raised it, they were immediately accused of racism.

Now it's become acceptable to debate it, it's like the floodgates have opened and all the nasty racist prejudices have come spilling out along with all the reasoned, thoughtful comment. It's like 20 years worth of discussion is happening in the space of a few months and we're all reeling from it.

I think that you have made a very valid point Caligula.

Good point, muslims at the kids schools just wear hijabs or scarfs. I think some ladies might be wearing veils as political statements and obviously govern policy has contributed to terroism e.g. apparently UK is now no. 1 on Al Qaeda's hitlist.

I just think that this is a bit of a tinderbox atm. Tensions are running high and it does not appear to be very helpful for the GOVERNMENT to start some sort of witch hunt about veils. This is the sort of thing I would expect from the press. I am not sure what Jack Straw et al thought would be the benefit of raising this sort of stuff now.

There have always been some religious groups who keep themselves to themselves and have opinions that I for one don't agree with. E.G. Plymouth Brethren, Hasidic Jews. Both these groups don't agree with female education beyond basic level and don't mix with the outside world. No one is ranting on about them having to change. It seems the only distinguishing thing about the veil issue is the terroism thing.

Its a bit like not discussing certain types of things about the family. E.G. long running grudges.

Some people might advocate having an up front discussion which might "clear the air". Others (and I think I am more of this persuasaion) think some things are best left unsaid. The risk being that a huge argument will follow which will lead to a irrepreable break.

I can see both sides of the argument but I am fearful of where all this might lead. We all have to try and get on and whilst there are always nutters and extremists out there most of us just muddle through and attempt to respect each others differences.

Hello MB.

Not sure I agree Caroline - I think the difference with muslims and Plymouth Brethren, is sheer numbers. Every society can afford a few groups of people who don't integrate and have a little commune of their own, whether that be Hasidic Jews, the Armish, those sailors who live up in the North West who came I think from Tunisia and never learnt the lingo, but Muslims account for a fairly large number of people in our society. I think it's to do with critical mass - you can afford for people to "keep themselves to themselves" as long as there are so few of them compared to the majority that they're irrelevant, but when their numbers give them political leverage and may start to affect the way the wider society functions, then you need to have a debate about how they fit into the wider community.

Yeah point taken about the critical mass thing.

But the veil wearing types are only a small percentage of British muslims. There are lots of muslims at work and they all manage to get by with wearing hijabs or scarfs. Perhaps the veil wearing is more of a North of England occurence.

3% I have read.

and keeping separate can be an issue if some sections of the community do not learn the language.

I know that any, many muslims do learn the language very quickly, are fluent etc. I also know tat many were born in the UK and speak english and their mother tongue from the earliest possible times.

But I also know there are are reasonably sized pockets of comminities where the women in particular do not speak any English (my bro teaches in a school who's catchment area is like this) many years on, they still don't speak english. And that is a worry. (and I recognise that this was done n the days of empire the other way round, and that was wrong too)

Anfd as Caligula says, to even raise this as an issue would risk being called a racist. And this happening whan real racism is an issue.

Yes I think more needs to be done about setting up English classes for mums at primary schools etc. Also I don't think everything should be translated. If I moved to Pakistan I would have to try and learn Urdu asap and I wld not expect everyone to speak English.

This is more of a practical issue however. Most British muslims are born in this country and speak perfect English even if it is a second language.

A lot of the PC stuff drives me mad as well (my dd came back home the other day and told me that "bc" no longer means before Christ but before common era!!!) However there are loads of bigots out there and they only need half an excuse to start causing violence against all different types of people. Once the genie is out of the bottle its hard to put it back in and all this ranting about muslims is like a red rag to a bull for some BNP types. As long as people behave themselves and obey the laws of this Country that is good enough for me.

Eh, martian, Brits did not just resist learning the language of the country they lived in the days of empire. Please go to any English enclave in the South of Spain, Italy, Portugal, wherever, and you will soon discover thet Brits. are not brilliant at integrating themselves into their native lands when they move abroad. It is rubbish to suggest that we Brits. are great at integrating.

For every Bengali woman, etc who veils herself and lives in the middle of London and speaks little English, I can introduce you to a Brit. who has spent 20 years in Spain and does not speak Spanish !

Actually my step-brother is a case in point. He has been running a B&B business in rural France for the past 15 years. My DH spoke to him on the phone once (DH is a fluent French speaker) and said he couldn't reply back in French to him, that is 15 years after living in a French village !

"C'est la vie" as they say in Birmingham

LOL at these expats who won't learn the language. But although they may be irritating, they're not a social problem. Because there are too few of them to matter.

If loads of English people started moving to France and not learning French though, and there were so many of them that they were a significant part of the population, they would be a problem and I bet you the Academie Francaise would lobby the govt to pass some draconian law that said you had to have eaten your own body weight of pate and declined etre correctly before you were allowed to claim dole in France or something.

Its probably getting that way already in some parts of France . Last time I was in the Dordogne most of the restaurants seemed full of Brits and the food had totally gone down hill...

Like you said though its only a small percentage of muslims who can't speak english.