muslim people

[zippadee]

i am alarmed at the amount of anti muslim rhetoric that is being bandied around. particularly by the government. what is going on?
i am a white , non muslim , what does everyone think about this?

Two women here at work are ranting about a man on the train they saw whose head was covered in tattoos. They said he made them feel very very scared. Why?? It's just body art. It doesn't mean he's a Charles Manson devotee or anything (btw - these women are in their early 40's - not old biddies)

Ikloo - I agree that walking past a group of youth who are shouting and swearing and wearing hoodies quite frightening - only because there seems to have been an increase in youth crime with people getting stabbed and shot for no apparent reason here in London.

Exactly - where I live there are reports of adult men being beaten half to death by youths because they challenged them for wrecking cars etc.

mb - i agree. which only makes me feel sorry for them (wrongly probably as i have no idea who im judging!). i think it's not fair of anyone to ask anyone to physically cut themselves off from healthy, freiendly communication with the world.

and becky - yes, you are right too. it is v difficult indeed to have in-depth conversations if you dont speak each others language. again, i think it would be wonderful for these parents to be able to speak english. perhaps we should find out why they dont and look at ways to help them to? im sure they would rather be able to speak english than not, given that they live here.

Blu - actually no, i didnt know that. but it doesnt surprise me. shes an amazing woman in lots of ways. a PITA in others! but thats a good thing to have done... im proud of her!

Kathy - yes. i have vastly over simplified, which is daft. youre right - its the lack of understanding about a whole culture which many people know nothing about which generates fear. again tho - if we all keep talking, eventually we will all understand each other right?? im a hopeless idealist, me

and thanks becky, yeah she has her moments!

oh! i name-changed btw. i am NappiesGalore. LaGore, whatever

Kathy - we seem to be agreeing on most issues then

On the veil thing, from what I have been told by secular Muslim friends, you can see veiled women in many of the Gulf Arab states. It also occurs in North Africa, but is practically non-existent in most of the more Westernised Muslim countries like Lebanon and Syria. In Afghanistan the burka only became prevalent with the Taliban coming to power. Before that, Afghani women did not cover their faces. In countries like Iran, despite the media hype, there is almost no veiling, except in the south were there are some very old Arab tribes. Headscarves only became compulsory in Iran with the arrival of the Mullah regime about 30 years ago and is very much being fought off by the new generation of educated, liberated, very Westernised young women.

Any way, I read an excellent article in the Guardian once by a female academic (I forget her name) which said that veiling did not occur at the time of Muhammed, unless you were from a particular Arab tribe that happened to wear veils, i.e. veils and face masks in that region pre-date Islam. Veiling became more common later on as the Arab Muslims came into contact with Orthodox Christians, mainly Greeks, who wore veils ! Fasinating social history I thought.

It seems that to this day veiling remains more a matter of custom (tribal in most cases) than Islam.

Yellowrose, that info on the history of veiling is really interesting. I had always assumed that veiling would be common in Iran. Particularly fascinating about Orthodox Christians doing it - I had no idea. (I wonder if that relates to the sort of practice that was common among the ancient Greeks - can't remember if women were veiled or not, but the way social life was structured, with women being secluded from public life, has a lot in common with certain Islamic countries particularly in the Ottoman period and perhaps today.)

Veiling in the UK today would seem to be a rather more complex interplay between religious, cultural and political factors - after all, as Saadia (I think) said below, many women here do feel it as a religious obligation (it's too easy to write it off as purely political cultural and say 'oh well, it's not even in the Koran', as many people on the BBC website have, but that doesn't acknowledge the reality of why women feel they're doing it). As many people have said, it's often second generation British Muslims rather than first. But I wonder how it relates to which culture your family came from in the first place - are women more likely to veil if their family came from countries where it was common, even if their mothers don't wear it, or do you get just as many Muslims whose ancestors were in non-veil-wearing countries doing it?

(Sorry, this is kind of on the wrong thread now!)

Kathy - you raise some interesting questions.

My observation is (I talk mainly to very secular Muslims, so hope I am not just guessing this) that Muslims in this country come from a very wide and diverse background of countries, cultures, and classes.

The average Morrocan has very little in common (apart from religion) with the average Indonisian. The impression I get is that it is very unlikley a Muslim woman who has secular parents/husband or is from a certain social status to suddenly go off and veil herself. It also very much depends on which country she is from.

However, my view is that even if only a very small number of new generation British Muslim girls/women are suddenly veiling or scarfing themselves in order to make a political statement, this should ring some alarm bells for the Govt. and our communities. It would be a signal that these women are seriously dissaffected by British society and we need to find out the root causes of this.

Kathy - yes just to clarify - I meant the Orthodox Greeks of the 7th and 8th cenuries AD not modern Greeks ! Greek women at the time seem to have been secluded from public life and many veiled, just like Muslim women were later in some countries.

This is way before the Ottomans in Turkey. I am talking about the time of Muhammed (I believe he was born and died in the 7th century AD).

"However, my view is that even if only a very small number of new generation British Muslim girls/women are suddenly veiling or scarfing themselves in order to make a political statement, this should ring some alarm bells for the Govt. and our communities. It would be a signal that these women are seriously dissaffected by British society and we need to find out the root causes of this."

Yes, agree absolutely.
I think it is ringing alarm bells, but I'm not convinced the govt is going the right way about finding out the root causes - there still seems to be this thing of talking to 'community leaders' who are male and in positions of authority. In fact the veil thing often seems to be tied up with feminism (women feeling more liberated when veiled) and women who are excluded from the power structures of their local mosques expressing their religion through their veils, so possibly 'community leaders' are actually the last people they should be talking to.... (I tend to learn a lot more from reading what Saadia and Fuzzy have to say than listening to Sir Iqbal Sacranie and the rest of them....)

re ancient/Byzantine Greeks - yes, it's ok, I knew what you meant! I was just wondering if the veiling of Orthodox women in Greece was a hangover from practices in Classical Greece a thousand years earlier, say the 5th c BC (rather a long time, so possibly not!)

IME, the women who are from countries which encourage veiling tend to throw off the scarves/veils the second they touch down in a Western non-veiling country.
Otoh, the women who do veil in england through their own choice, have done so after much thought and soul searching and reading up(through religious literature) on the matter.

I've mentioned previously, that my mother and sisters don't veil or wear headscarves. I wear the headscarf (not the face veil), it's my own choice, I believe it was prescribed by God, and in England I have the freedom to worship, as do people of every other religion. I don't think the headscarf at least prevents me from interacting with others.
Don't all religious symbols to some extent set aside the person bearing them from the 'crowd' so to speak??

Kathy - another excellent point. I learn more from talking to my female Muslim friends (I studied at a couple of very international universities and have made friends with several highly educated Middle Eastern women through my studies and work) than I gather I would if I went to a local Mosque and interviewed the Imam

Also DH lived in Dubai for 5 years and has some close Arab and Iranian friends.

However, as I said to Saadia earlier, I live in North London and rarely see a veiled woman let alone get the chance to ask her her views on politics ! I would love to though.

Kathy - The ancient Greek vases I have seen in books and in the British Museum show the women dressed in rather floaty, thin, silky dresses, so I can only guess the veiling came much later

I echo what YR has said about how helpful it is to read fuzzy and saadia's posts.

I honestly don't think that the vast majority of people in the UK have an issue with the headscarf etc traditional dress. It is the practice of veiling that many poster have 'issues' with.

I think this is because, as a nation, we have no experience of veiling. I cannot think of a time where it was practiced. Head covering was the norm until fairly recently.

But complete covering of the face has no historical or cultural precident in the UK.

"Don't all religious symbols to some extent set aside the person bearing them from the 'crowd' so to speak??"

Fuzzy - agree with what you say. I think wearing the Star of David or a Cross sets a person apart. They are religious symbols, ok not clothing, but suggest that the symbol worn is of huge significance to the person wearing it.

Unless you are Mrs Beckham that is and you just wear a designer diamond bling to show off !

mb - I disagree with the no precedent in the UK bit. Londoners have always seen veiled women, may be not in all areas, but most certainly in central London where rich Gulf Arabs have been around and have owned properties for several decades. I remember seeing them mainly in the posh areas like Knightsbridge, back in the 1970's when I was a kid !

I was thinking of prior to muslims being veiled.

We have no 'home grown' tradition of veiling. 9for want of a better word

And since it is usual to nod in the direction to host culture (for example I wore covering clothes while in Egypt) it isn't surprising that UK people may find veiling rather strange and somewat of a barrier toeasy communication.

I am not for one minute sugesting that it should be banned. But woman who do veil should understand that this is going against a thousand years of tradition in the UK. Historically we have always shown our faces. I am proud of the UK being a multiultural state, but we also have our own cultural norms.

mb - sorry I misunderstood. I thought you meant we haven't seen Muslims with veils on here in the UK before.

This is really one of my points about why some people in govt. have seen it fit to talk about Muslims veiling at this particular point in history.

For Muslims, as you point out, there is a historical tradition of veiling in some of their communities, tribes, etc. Here in London and I guess in other big cities with Muslim populations, we are used to seeing a veiled Muslim woman, every now and then.

A female Muslim MP (Conservative Party) has highlighted the fact that very few Muslim women in the UK actually veil their faces, so the question again, is why has Straw, who has been an MP for 20 years and admits to always having had Muslims in his commuinity, decided to talk about it now ? Did he have some kind of mental block for the past 20 years ?

Someone, I can't remember who, posrted that they felt these things have been thought for quite some time, but supressed for fears that if they discussed them they would be called 'racist'.

I'm not sure I agree 100% with this as a 'reason' but do feel that it has some validity....since when JS raised the issue some people (muslim and non muslims) did call him racist.

I think that there are other issues to play as well.

In the olden days (you remember, about 15 years ago) very few women wore hijab in the UK, let alone were veiled. I was discussing this with a colleague today - 3 of us who had worked in a girls school where most of the pupils are Bangladeshi muslims seperately estimated the number of girls wearing hijab 15 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 yars ago and now. 15 years ago, about 1 girl in eac class wore a flimsy sort of hijab. they covered their headss with their chiffon 'unnas' when they went into the street, maybe. (the scarf that goes over the chest and shoulders with a shalwar kameez). Now 90% of the girls wear a proper 'under the chin' hijab of thick cloth. And the big change has come since the community felt so under threat in the fall out after 9/11.

In the olden days Muslim Asians (the asian was more identified than the religion) were seen as the hard-working, heads-down, high-achieving-in-schoools ethnic group. Running shops and small businesses, or like my PILs working hard at rock bottom wages for the NHS and British rail, all in order to make a good life for their children. Being quite 'meek'. 'Pakis' to some, 'they keep themselves to themselves, don't mix much' to others, but generally, amongst reasonable people in this country, no one wanted to say much that would have been construed as racist - unless they were deliberately racist folk - because there wasn't much of an issue. Not anywhere I have lived, anyway.

But a foreign policy led by the USA and sucked up by the West with the UK as first runner-up, and a bunch of murderous radical fundementalists, and the picture has changed.

Can people really not conceive of increased hijab / veil wearing as a deepened affinity to identity through religion and/or an ncreased need to assert a political identity in the face of our foreign policies, and in the face of the aftermath of 9/11 and then again after the London bombings last year?

That this is a development which is the result of a two-way dynamic. Of course nothing should be beyond dialogue, nothing should be 'undiscussable' - but at what point does villifying women for wearing cloth over thier faces just add to the creation of a divide?

MB - I'm not saying your friends are racists - just giving the picture that I had before all this became such a hot topic.

Racist ? I am not sure about that.

It does I think boil down to what your views are on this Govt's handling of both domestic and foreign policy issues and how successful you think they have been in combating terrorism.

If you think the Govt. is rubbish, then you are more likley to see through their dirty politics. When you are rubbish at something you are more likley to come up with excuses as to why you are rubbish.

Talking about veils may not be racist, but it is a bloody good excuse to avoid the REAL issues.

"Talking about veils may not be racist, but it is a bloody good excuse to avoid the REAL issues. "

Yes indeed.

Blu - in fact I am quite stunned by those posters on this and the other "veil" threads who cannot see any kind of link btween discussions of veils and fudging the BIG issues: 9/11, Madrid, London, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc