islamist extremists strike in france

[KareninsGirl]

My thoughts are with the victims of the latest barbaric act by Islamic extremists.

The world needs to wake up and defend itself.

RIP those who died and prayers for those critically injured.

at French magazine office www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30710883

Of course Muslims condemn the attack. Not only is it a despicable thing to do, but it makes people turn on Muslims and brings about division and hatred into the society they live in. People don't want that.
And do people honestly think that Muslims want to go around killing non-believers because some texts in the Koran regarding war in past era said that if they were being persecuted then they could kill? ('But if they're offered peace, then accept peace' is the line often missed out in these quotes!)

Tidy that must have been difficult. That mindset is not unlike the way people used to think about the King or Pope in the 16th century here and that idea of heresy.

What did you say in response and did they see your point of view?

MI5 are being truthful when they say it's unlikely they can stop every potential attack. Not alarmist, not defeatist, just realistic. From what I see and read many people want to think their government can protect them nomatter what. When something terrible happens some people fall into thinking that it's a government-led conspiracy, maybe because they can't comprehend the alternative - that your continued existence may be in the hands of fate, of not being in the wrong place at the wrong time when someone with violent intent slips through the net.

The truth is it's impossible to have perfect knowledge. There simply aren't the resources, supportive laws and social acceptance to watch every single person in the UK. And despite its potential consequences we should be grateful for that - because fundamentally it would turn us into something akin to Stalin's Russia.

I only saw one Facebook status from a Muslim about the Paris attacks. He said that whilst he would not condone the attacks why are people allowed to insult Islam in the name of free speech. It is hard to empathise, when I read things that are offensive to me I feel mildly irritated and forget about it. Muslims feel very differently.

Caffe - I do agree with you. Religion - all religions - are a vehicle to secure power. Islam is just a system that instructs its followers to kill others - yes - but most ideologies would be after the same effect, if they could get away with it. It's a sliding scale - but I still see the ultimate goal of all of this as imposing your perspective on the world, be it religion, democracy, or, more mundanely, parenting style. We all like to think that we are right. Some societies have recognised that living alongside other perspectives, instead of annihilating them, may be mutually beneficial for survival.

Missed the last sentence off my post. I meant to add its possible that they feel that way because they feel that they are under constant attack.

PERMACULT,

Actually there were a mix of Sunni and Shi'a Muslims. They were all in agreement.

My DH is Muslim and did not agree with what was being said obviously neither did I.

Having lived in the Middle East for a number of years and being married to a Muslim I have first hand experience of the level of hate there is for the west, its actually frightening.

Obviously not all Muslims hate the west but I think most would agree that if you insult Islam you will see repercussions.

500 the brothers had been involved in terrorism for nearly a decade - pre-dating even the Danish cartoons, in fact - and had trained/ fought in other countries. How long do you think it takes for someone to become proficient enough to plan + conduct a slick attack?

Marjorie - I am not surprised and recognise what you say. But many others, mainstream Muslims, our politicians and media either do not see this or for other reasons are in denial. That is the biggest problem, because it means the root causes are not addressed and it will only get worse till we have to flee a Shariah Europe.

tidytidy - so what does that amount to - thought crime? I mean, they are allowed to have an opinion in what they feel is non-judgmental company of others who might also be feeling persecuted and justifiably paranoid. Lo and behold, you sneak off to MN and effectively shame them. You do realise that this particular thread is infested with islamaphobists and all you are doing is giving them validation. They do not represent the views of non Muslims in my city at all. Btw President of Iran is attending the big march in Paris today along with Cameron etc. Nothing more obviously condemnatory than that.

Anyone else interpret the title as "islamist extremists on strike in France"?

I smirked, just for a second.

Sorry. Serious debate. As you were.

I didn't realise the president of Iran was attending. That's good news.

Perm so the people tidy socialised with have a justifiable opinion but tidy expressing her opinion about what they said is sneaky and wrong?
Riiiiighhhht.

Troels that's not my opinion so I can't answer.
I can only assume that people who are saying if you insult Islam then expect there to be consequences mean that there's always some warped thinking extremists willing to kill, not that the killings is justified or repercussions are deserved.

I'm not sure if we're lucky or unlucky that Christianity is a pacifist religion. It no doubt is on account of its having been invented under the Roman occupation. The Jews did attempt to overthrow the Romans (or rebel significantly) at one point, and look how well that turned out. So, we needed Pope Urban II to come up with the brilliant idea of the First Crusade. (What a genius he was.) And St Augustine to come up with the concept of a just war. At least Augustine did put some thought into his idea.

I had to laugh at this permacult

so what does that amount to - thought crime? I mean, they are allowed to have an opinion

Would you like to reread your own posts because you don't believe people are entitled to opinions unless they match yours.

Btw I'm still trying to find out where this idea came from that we "expect Muslims to apologise.". Everyone knows that bad people are saying it but no one can actually point to them. You were the first person to say it on this thread, where did you get it from?

It's the cognitive dissonance - I read and hear that Islam is a religion of peace. Then these terrible atrocities occur across the world. 2000 people killed for living in a village. And people are murdered for drawing pictures, or flogged until they die in the most agonising way for writing down their thoughts.

I see a religion which subjugates women, which is intolerant of homosexuality.

Is this islamaphobic of me? I don't know anymore.

OK, but Islam doesn't flog people; people do.

Would that be the same Iran that public ally hangs homosexuals from cranes? Their Presidents is marching at a rally against extremism. Pure satire!

Turns out there is nothing in the Kiran that explicitly forbids images of the Prophet and before the ban which happened later there were images and some of these still exist

So later interpretation of the Koran rather than the direct word of Allah, if you believe that sort of thing.

Perhaps things could change for the better in Iran? I don't know much about the current Iranian prime minister however I remember reading a while back that there was optimism in Iran that things could change for the better. Apologies if I'm talking rubbish I need to update my knowledge on the current regime.

I'm glad tidytidy was honest here and don't find it sneaky. It makes it clear that we all need to have conversations about the idea of freedom of speech, it's history, how it clashes with ideas of heresy and when it needs to be curbed as hate speech.

Maybe then those who want to can get on with living in a pluralist society. Because there is a massive disconnect here; brushing it under the carpet long term is not going to help. The non-violence supporting people have to work together, and work against being polarised. Don't let the bastards manipulate you. (Only you know who your own chosen bastards are.)

WetAugist That's what I was told, too. Apparently, the Koran as it stands now bears little similarity withe the original 'words'. It was redrafted later to stand in place for 'law'. All for practical purposes at the time, nothing else.

It was a specialist scholar that voiced this originally. Can't remember everything that was said, unfortunately.

Perm, I am entitled to write what I want so are you, this whole thread is about discussing opinions and actions of others !!

Ok. I posted this in the other thread, but could someone please tell me... if God/Allah... if any of them existed... and we're merely characters in a game like The Sims, why should we worship God/Allah aka The Player?