islamist extremists strike in france

[KareninsGirl]

My thoughts are with the victims of the latest barbaric act by Islamic extremists.

The world needs to wake up and defend itself.

RIP those who died and prayers for those critically injured.

at French magazine office www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30710883

After yesterday's events the time has come to understand a little less and condemn a little more. We should not fear challenging what is morally wrong.

But you are right. Tower Hamlets was another wake up call.

Now there is to be a march in Manchester this Sunday

Can people please stop saying 'Islam says' or 'Islam does'? It just makes you sound racist. Islam can't say or do anything, it's people doing all these things. Also saying all Muslims do anything is just foolish, or that there is no such thing as moderate Islam, of course there is.

Polls here in Germany show 90% of German Muslims support democracy and 60% believe in same-sex marriage, even among highly religious Muslims 60% say they reevaluate their own religious beliefs regularly. So please, don't tell me all Muslims are the same or that they're all in thrall to an ancient book and incapable of accommodating modernity into their beliefs. That's just ignorant.

Can people please stop saying 'Islam says'

No.

Can you point to the posts where someone says that all Muslims are identical?

all in thrall to an ancient book well they claim to be, but I'm sure that many - like modern Christians just do the bits that are convenient.

But.. you have heard of the term 'religion' haven't you? if not then look it up. Look up Holy Book too and Bible, Koran etc. You seem to have missed some things.

I think there is a theme running through this thread that all muslims are the same and that we should stop trying to understand and start looking to blame. It's a derivation of a famous Cameronism, I believe.

Unfortunately there are 17 pages of it. But, to notice the they're all non moderate, hate women and gays bla, bla, you only have to scroll back a couple of pages.

dreamingBohemian

You said .... " it makes you sound racist". By saying that You are part if the problem as you have totally failed to understand that Islam is a BELIEF SYSTEM IN WHICH PEOPLE CHOSE TO BELIEVE.

Islam is not a 'race' and never will be. It is a belief system that is held by people of every race

So criticising Islam is not RACIST.

I just wanted to make sure that you totally understand that as by continuing to falsely believe Islam is a race you are attributing characteristics to it falsely and falsely accusing it's critics if racism

DoraGora if someone says to me that they are Christian isn't it reasonable for me to assume they believe in Jesus, heaven etc?

'It is also the case that Islam actively promotes the stealthy and insidious infiltration of Western societies (in order to eradicate them)'

'there is no such thing as moderate/extreme Islam'

'all Muslims would take offence at the cartoons'

'I am becoming very fed up indeed with Muslims claims I of Islamophobia and portraying themselves as victims'

That's just today. Doesn't sound a bit 1933 to you? Okay then.

wrong again Dora. It was a famous John Majorism that you are thinking of

What people are saying is that there is One Islam with One Koran and Hadith. How individual Muslims interpret them and incorporate them into their lives is for them alone.

So you get Muslims that are not particularly religious and at the other end of the scale you get zealot fundamentalists. Just as in Catholicism you get those who adhere to the view of Rome on contraception and these who chose to ignore it or in the Anglican Church, those who welcome female bishops and those totally opposed.

It's strength of feeling. And strength of feeling can be whipped up by perceived injustice or discrimination. It can even be whipped up by outrage as I feel my own tolerance has been diminished a little since yesterday, and that names me angry because I am falling for their plan

But my outrage at the slaughter of 12 people is reasonable whereas the perpetrators outrage at a cartoon is bordering on mental illness.

Sorry I'm kind of laughing that your response isn't 'No I'm not racist' but a rant about semantics. Fine, yes, Islam is not a race, I'm well aware. The same dynamics of prejudice apply though in terms of treating a group monolithically, exaggerated statements, paranoia, etc. But if you prefer I will amend my statement to 'it makes you sound xenophobic'. Better?

I hold the same view as you, that there is no such thing as moderate/extreme Islam, but just moderate/extreme reactions to perceived slights to their religion The whole quote says something different you see.

all Muslims would take offence at the cartoons I think some won't personally, but then we've been told by Muslims that they all will be offended because it's forbidden. Like all Christians believing in Jesus.

I am becoming very fed up indeed with Muslims claims I of Islamophobia and portraying themselves as victims' that one doesn't say all Muslims and there is proof that Muslims have been claiming Islamophobia.

See WetAugust's post explaining the difference between race and religion and it may help you get it in perspective.

Meanwhile consider the claim made recently that all chess players have at one time or another played chess!

Too much of a generalisation do you think?

If anyone needs help getting perspective, it's the person who thinks you can make any kind of analogy between 'chess player' and 'Muslim'.

All those comments are xenophobic.

All men are sexist - no, of course they are not. Hegeminic masculinity (the dominant 'type' of belief system in Wesern democrary ) is sexist = yes

All Muslims are prejudiced - no, of course they are not. Hegemonic Islam (the dominant 'type' of belief system in Muslim cultures) is prejudiced = yes

Please don't conflate individuals, race, belief systems and bahaviour/actions. It's more compex than that.

DreamingBohemian

I am glad you played the R card...I was waiting for it.

There are more ways of shutting people up who criticise Islam than shooting them. Trying to shame them by calling them racist is one of the most common.

Of course, Islam is a religion, not a race, so it is a pretty dumb thing to say.

And it is quite acceptable to say, "Islam says" - because Islam is an ideology written down in books, so it can be referred to in that way.

You keep confusing Muslims & Islam. As I said before, the words are not synonymous.

And by the way, precisely no one is saying the things you are accusing them of - so you are basically arguing with yourself.

I hold the same view as you, that there is no such thing as moderate/extreme Islam, but just moderate/extreme reactions to perceived slights to their religion The whole quote says something different you see.

dreaming why did you choose to quote only part of the above and ignore it when pointed out preferring to latch on to the comment about chess players?

The R-card has lost its magic. People moved on a while ago...

DoraGora you know crap all about Rotherham and you're talking bollocks. The police didn't 'persuade' girls to drop charges. They refused to press charges even when the girls and their families were begging them. When father's tried to go and rescue their children they arrested the fathers and left the children with the abusers. In other occasions they came across children in bed with their abusers and left the abusers while the children were arrested.

Some of the abusers were related to councillors who were involved in running the complicit children's services and Denis MacShane admitted he turned a blind eye because he 'didn't want to rock the multicultural boat'.

No, I'm arguing with people who seem to think making incorrect and offensive generalisations about a particular group is not prejudiced or xenophobic. That's okay, the more you write, I think the more clearly your ideas come through. I'm not trying to shut you up.

heart where do you think those laws came from? not a vacuum, they happened because people had social attitudes that permitted them. That's my point. If people go around saying xenophobic things about Islam and Muslims, saying there's no such thing as moderate Islam, how long before we do start seeing pogroms? How long before we start electing reactionary governments that do put in the kind of laws the Nazis did? That's why giving in to these ideas is so dangerous.

btw anti-Semitism was not based in racist conceptions until the 19th century, for all the centuries before that it had a religious basis.

There is a nasty racist who has been popping up on sky news today . Claims the cartoons were racist . He made some pretty strong accusations and called another journalist who chose to question him a far right nutter . The irony being that those at Charlie Hebdo were far from right wing nutters . He was quite hysterical in comparison to the quiet dignity shown in France today . Crying racism is such a cheep way of shutting down debate .

DreamingBohemian

Do yourself favour and buy a dictionary because you really need to understand the meanings of words you use so Inappropriately such as 'race' or 'xenophobia'

While you're at it you could also buy yourself a basic history book so you understand what the Holocaust was

Islamophobia is a term dreamt up by sympathisers of Islam to try to shame people who questioned the belief system. The word us totally inappropriate. Phobia is an unfounded fear. Tell the 12 who were murdered yesterday that their concerns were unfounded. However in the context that Islamophobia is screamed as some kind of trump card to try to close down debate if you really mean haters of Islam rather than those who fear Islam you should call it MisoIslamia where miso is hate or intense dislike. But 'hate' is another word that Lefties have tried to ban as they don't like anyone having strong views on anything

You see questioning, hating, or even drawing cartoons are all prohibited as Islam will not bear scrutiny

From the Independent at least he is saying what he really thinks

Perhaps, bollocks indeed. I'm sure you're the authority on what portion of a charge is within the gift of a victim. I'm of the impression that a both the victim and the police press charges.

Although only the police formally charge any suspect.

I think this matters (say in the case of domestic abuse) when the victim refuses to press charges. Indeed, it may be bollocks. What say you?

And as somebody else has already invoked Godwin's law: I would add to heartisaspade's point: Jews were discriminated against by the state because of their race and religion. Have a look around the world today and note the countries which legalise and even encourage discrimination on the basis of race and religion. They are overwhelmingly Muslim. If any ideology in the world today displays values akin to Nazism it's Islam and the states it has produced.

There does need to be an open discussion also about what constitutes free speech and what exactly is hate speech. Hebdo recently fired a cartoonist for anti semitic views when he mocked the son of a former French president.

The concept of free speech has changed and remains ambiguous. Some of the expressions on this thread have come across as racist and very islamophobic.