Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users

[DuelingFanjo]

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First Bus wins wheelchair court judgement - Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users in designated bays on vehicles, senior judges ruled.

Might be a controversial opinion but I am glad.

Yes, Melody if the mother won't fold or there is no room for both her and the wheelchair then she should get off! Most buses offer a replacement ticket. I honestly don't know why this is so hard to understand.

Oops, forgot my actual point

If I had to fold to board, I couldn't use the bus. On my route (park & ride) it would be highly unusual to see a wheelchair anyway, as those with blue badges can simply drive all the way into the city and park for free, rather than park outside and pay £2pp for the bus.

I can see that a "buggies only if folded" rule could be useful on some routes (especially near hospitals) but not nationwide.

Melodygrace, the judgement addresses your point. It talks about driver training etc and concludes that there will be occasions when it is simply unfair to make a driver decide between conflicting needs.

"I have considered whether the duty might nevertheless have required FirstGroup to go further than it did, even if not as far as the Judge held: might there not be a half-way house between a policy of "mere" request (though, as I say above, the request in this case conveys a sense of obligation) and one of enforcement in every case? I would certainly hope and expect that, other things being equal, a driver whose first request to a non-wheelchair user to vacate the wheelchair space was refused would not simply shrug his or her shoulders and go back to the cab, and that there would normally be some attempt at further persuasion or pressure (possibly even including a threat not to proceed with the journey until the space is cleared – though this risks seriously inconveniencing other passengers). But I would be very uneasy about concluding that a bus company was in breach of its duty under section 20 (3) of the Act unless it had a policy that positively required drivers to reinforce the basic request by one or more of those means. The sting is in my earlier qualification "other things being equal". The circumstances in which such a refusal is encountered are liable to vary enormously. In most cases further attempts at persuasion or pressure would be appropriate, but in some they might not be: as Lewison LJ has illustrated, there will be cases where it would be obviously unreasonable to expect the person occupying the space to vacate it, and there would be others where the question of whose need was the greater was at least debatable and where it would not be fair to expect the driver to have to make a decision. Also, the temperaments and experience of different drivers are bound to vary: some would handle such a situation well, but others might find it difficult to cope with. It would be unrealistic for a company to have a policy which prescribed calibrated responses covering the whole range of possible situations. The most that such a policy could sensibly do would be to encourage drivers to go as far as they thought appropriate in the circumstances – in legal language, "use their best endeavours" – to induce the recalcitrant passenger to reconsider his or her initial refusal; and for myself I would have thought that it was good practice to have such a policy and to ensure by appropriate training that it was understood by drivers. But there is in reality no very deep gulf between a policy so expressed and one, like FirstGroup's, which does not in terms go further than saying that the passenger should be asked to move."

I take it the people who are "glad"/think it's a great result aren't personally affected by this?

TheFairy
I understand where you are coming from but there can be legitimate reasons why a mum isn't folding the buggy. I would have struggled to manage folding a buggy and holding a newborn 12 days post C Section (when I started to go out). So you would have had me kicked off the bus 12 days post surgery when I was struggling.

If there's two mothers. Which one has to get off? I would always give priority to the less abled, elderly pregnant ladies etc. I guess I can kind of see the judges reasoning. Not putting the bus driver in a position to choose.
some people are in wheelchairs for broken ankles, bein overweight etc these people are just as able to wait for the next bus as mothers that are already on the bus with newborn babies.
I'm not trying to cause an argument imho I can see where the judge is coming from... If I was a bus driver I wouldn't want to have to deal with this kind of confrontation. (if there was to be any) me personally I would just get off the bus.

I have helped other parents fold their buggies, and held babies. And other people have helped me fold my buggy and held dds when they were babies. People often help if asked.

If someone is willing to get off a bus and wait for another one, that's great, but I really don't think making passengers get off a bus to let another one on is ever going to work. Once a passenger has paid their fare and began the journey they have entered into a contract with the bus company. Presumably, if the wheelchair user is waiting for the bus they are either near their own house or work or somewhere familiar. Making a woman with a baby get off in a random location, partway through a journey, to wait another bus is ludicrous. Especially if it is going to be an hours wait, or even possibly the last bus. The disadvantages of this policy that so many seem to think is a good idea will mean it will be unlikely to ever be made.

bloody livid about this.
signs on buses say priority seats for those unable to stand, and wheelchairs take priority over buggies.

once again, discrimination aagainst the disabled (of which I am one)

When I was post c-section, I just walked everywhere. You can walk if you have a buggy. You can't if you have a wheelchair.

FFS this really pisses me off. Wheelchair users chained themselves to buses for the right to have a space on buses and now the people who refuse to move for wheelchair users are going to feel ever more legitimate in being cunts.

Drivers can and do stop buses for people who refuse to pay or for people who are being aggressive or anti-social. So there's no reason they can't intervene when a belligent buy user refuses to budge.

(and Tinsel - while I'm very sympathetic to your needs, you are disabled. 99% of buggy users aren't. Ones who wont move for a wheelchair are just entitled knobs)

Just read that grovel. I posted before reading!
It's sad that people don't do polite things for people anymore. Lacking basic manners.
Recently I took my two small children to the dentist I made them both sit on my knee to make room for an elderly lady. Then an elderly couple came in I stood with my children I was also pregnant so one could have my seat. Another woman with 3 small children did not budge or make any of her kids stand...! I was a bit annoyed as the gentleman was leaning against the wall and looked to be in his 80s.

Sorry that was off topic.

Name calling is always the way to win the debate

thefairy yes, lovely but my cousins was so old and rickety we couldn't fold it! It belonged on the dump, really! She couldn't use a carrier, but you definitely used to be able to pull the buggy up the steps of the bus if it was a double decker, but it was during the time when the single storey buses with the lower-able floors were coming in anyway.

Regardless, she really relied on those buses. There must be women in the same situation now.

New buses do cost money, but fares are cheap in comparison to driving your own vehicle, I think. If there were a fare rise to compensate for better buses, it'd be well spent I think. You will never please everyone!

Now, has anyone started a parent/child parking thread yet, and if not, why not?!

OddFodd
I couldn't have managed to get the buggy up or down the hill by our home for the first couple of weeks. Just because you could walk with a buggy doesn't mean everyone can. My incapacity might have been temporary but that doesn't make it non-existent. That's the point the Judges are making. How can a driver decide who has the greatest need.

Drivers can refuse to move when someone doesn't pay because paying is a requirement , a contractual condition, they can refuse to move when someone is being anti-social because that is moving into criminal behaviour. However, most times in London they don't because all that happens is that the driver gets a mouthful of abuse from the belligerent person and then disciplined by the bus company for being late.

odd some bus drivers do. Not all. They don't have to intervene if they are worried about personal assault. They can just stop the bus, but they do have to explain why they did that to a higher level.

It isn't their fault it's this way. The bus companies could solve this, but it's too much trouble. And whilst we're all blaming each other and not them, it makes it rather easy for them, don't you think?

TheFairy
I understand where you are coming from but there can be legitimate reasons why a mum isn't folding the buggy. I would have struggled to manage folding a buggy and holding a newborn 12 days post C Section (when I started to go out). So you would have had me kicked off the bus 12 days post surgery when I was struggling

So, Chaz I should sit on the pavement for 2 hours (because that is how often our buses are) because someone has had a C-section and is struggling? Really?

Would you like to have a little think about the struggle that disabled people face every single day of their lives face? I trust you got better? I won't, just worse!

hazey yes, but there is nowhere to put the folded buggy any longer as its not safe or able to be properly restrained in the event of an accident.

The buggy user is supposed to get off the bus to make way for the wheelchair user.

thefairy no one has said that no one wants anyone to suffer here.

As I've said; while people are blaming each other, the bus companies don't have to react or respond.

Why can't you expect the bus company to enforce? Is it okay then to not expect pub staff to enforce the law against underage drinking, night clubs to enforce no drugs, chemists to enforce no excessive sale of paracetamol, LAs to enforce school attendance etc.

My dcs are both disabled but mentally not physically. I'm firmly in the wheelchair takes precedent but I also have sympathy for parents using the bus. When mine were small taking the bus was a nightmare of trying your best not to hurtle to the floor whilst holding kid and buggy whilst holding a rail whilst attempting to fish out cash to pay. I hated it and was delighted when those days were gone; which is my point, those days were temporary not permanent. Ultimately, buses are no longer fit for purpose, so should be changed to accommodate all needs. If that means less buses, well then we will all have to just deal with that.

Errm, Wondering yes they have! Chaz asked if I would have her chucked off the bus 12 days post c section. If I didn't do that I would be stuck on the pavement for 2 hours!

Because it's one driver versus perhaps 3/4 people, which is dangerous. Even in pubs/clubs there are at least a team of bouncers. They would probably need to enforce by bringing back some kind of conductor, or perhaps a security person. This would also raise fares. I'd rather see better designed buses as a reason for a fare rise.

TheFairy
I know my incapacity was temporary but 12 days post surgery with an with problems with my pelvis I was struggling to walk. Yes, it got better but that doesn't mean it didn't affect me at the time. That is not to underestimate the problems you face on a daily basis. It is simply to say that because there may be a legitimate reason why that specific person is not folding the buggy making blanket rules doesn't always work.

Trust me as soon as I was in a position to do so I would (and have) folded my buggy or got off.

I can't see where chaz wished you harm. If you think she has, you should report the post.