Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

Freckle - yes agree that twisting facts is wrong. But it is also extremely politically naive to think that Straw wants to talk face to face and that is what is bugging him. Also the moron who attacked the woman IS entirley to blame for his actions, but unfortunatley stupid people who can't think for themselves often take cues from their political leaders. You can't be serious in saying that this thug wasn't fully aware of Straw's comments ?

No I haven't heared of them changing teir dress, but neither would I object to someone asking them.

Beacsue if we are all going to rub along and get along, we all have to given and take.

When I went to Egypt I knew that if I dressed in shorts I'd be treated by many of the men as a whore. Now I'm not, and I would prefer it that they didn't think that way and make those sorts of assumptions. but hay, it is their country, my holidays, I wanted to have a nice time and didn't want to offend anyone. So I took the advice in all the books, wasn't offended that I was given that advice and had a great time and was treated very well.

And the same thing applies here. Our cultural norm is that faces are on show. This is the case and has been for centuaries. This is our culural norm. people do expect to see your face. Now these ladies might wish us not to feel like this, but we do. We do find it odd and disconcerting to talk to a veil, it is our cuture.

I have no problem with them chosing to go their own way, in fact I am proud that our society gives people this level of freedom, but in doing so they have to realise that it will colour the way people react. This is not to condone por behaviour or rudeness to a woman in a veil. But it does make people lok twice.

Just like shorts would have in egypt. asking them is on a par with being advised that wearing shorts can be seen as offensive. It isn't racist or arrogant or stupid.

It's not about religion taking precedent. It is about ONE religion ONLY taking precedent. It is about politians being s**t scared of violent fundmentalists. Any christian demanding such rights would be taken absolutely no notice of. infact haven't I heard rmours (hopefuly completely false) about changing Christmas into a non christian celebration for fear of offending other religions?
I hear the arugment from some Muslims that we are getting a false picture of their religion because of those vile radicals. That may be true, but I don't hear any Muslim voices decrying this behaviour. perhaps they are too frightened too. Someone has to put their foot down soon though.

Yes, I heard a few years ago that the council in Birmingham were thinking of calling it "Winterval" instead of Christmas, so as not to offend people of other faiths. I did find that a rather shocking idea.

I expect that this thug (who was apparently in his 60s) absolutely was aware of Straw's comment. As are millions of others, but not all of them have taken such actions. The man was clearly an ignorant moron, but I don't think you can blame Straw. I'm sure ignorant morons would find some excuse to act in that way whether Straw had spoken or not.

tbh kitty the 'christmas' thing is normaly driven by white Gardianesta types, not the leaders of other religions.

This happened in Walsall, where my bro lives. The leaders of the local Muslim and Hindu comminities thought that it was utterly insane to rename Christmas 'Winterval'. they didn't ask for it, other people did , erroniously thinking it would be what they wanted.

martian - I think it is a wee bit disrespectful to ASSUME that Egyptian men would have classed you as a "whore" if you had worn shorts. Yes they probably would have stared, but perhaps in admiration not horror as it is unusual for women in their country to be dressed in short skirts and flimsy tops.

I got whistled at and my bottom pinched in Italy, not because I dress like a whore (I wish I knew how to dress like one) I put it down to those gorgeous Italian men being a bit more jolly than Northern European men ! I was flattered in fact !

didn't say all, did say some.

It would have been led in part by one of the women on the same tour being offered money for sex, I suppose. But I suppose that I might have misread that bit of cultural exchange.

Why not adapt to the ecpectations of the country that you go into

I wore a shawl to go into greek churches.

realise that in my post I wrote many. I should have. I did mean some. Appols for that, put it down to typing when sorting tea and baths!

To assume many would have been disrespectful and that was not my intent

Freckle - I blame the entire Labour party (that very much includes Mr Staw) for many many horrors and atrocities against humanity through their actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. One man tearing off a woman's veil is nothing compared to what we and the US are doing in the ME, including instances of rape. It seems to me that everything that can be done to demean Muslim women is being done rather well.

Yes, I am a bleeding heart, pinko, Guardianista (also been called boob mafia because of my words re. breastfeeding) sort of woman and bloody well proud of it too !

I think people should be allowed to dress as they wish, regardless of religion or race, and Mr Straw should put a sock in it

Good Night, and Good Luck !

so can I walk on your nice carpet in my muddy boots then

Night night

at MB

If they were carrying bombs (utterly ridiculous thing to even bring into this conversation IMO) then they certainly wouldn't be carrying them under a facial veil of all possible places. I don't think that much of Jack Staw but he's not that much of an idiot. I mean, a bomb is not like having a bit of a big nose. You'd notice.
Of course it is harder to communicate with someone wearing a mask. Would you feel absolutely comfortable if one of your colleagues at work insisted on wearing a halloween mask to work? Or keeping their cycle helmet on all day? I wouldn't.

And when it comes to demeaning women in Afghanistan, I think the Muslim Taliban did a bloody marvellous job. Put us totally to shame. Do you have any IDEA what it was like for women under the Taliban? I think intervention against the Taliban is very much in the tradition of intervention against Hitler or in Serbia.

martian - my last words here - yes I was referring to the word "many" I am glad you have qualified it now (sorry, I am an aging lawyer so notice the type of words being used very quickly !) - ps - how much was the woman on the tour offered ? Just wondering what the going rate is over there in Egypt ? Just kidding

I think it would be a nonsense to 'ban' the veil (always dodgy to start outlawing stuff)but it is an anachronism in GB.
Also think that yes,these women are the least of our worries.Giving them a hard time just adds to the misogynistic repression they already suffer.

Still think it's bloody ridiculous though.
In ultra conservative Eastern Turkey where I live,I constantly do things differently out of respect for the people there.

So, yellowrose I can also walk in a mosque in my swimwear?

Mb, that rings true about the white gardianesta
types. Makes me V..

"He's NOT blind though QOQ and as such communicates, as other sighted people do, by watching peoples facial expressions"

But we can talk on the telephone and work out how someone is feeling - can't we???

About the equivalent of £20, but this was back in the middle ages, before I had kids . Not much for her, but realtivy quite a bit for him.

I never had any problems and had a very charming chat with one shop keeper who proudly showed me his cross tattoo on his wrist, his name was George and he was a CHristian.....not a tatoo, that is taking religious 'marks' seriously!

HRH, I can't do it very well, unless I really know the person

I can't tell how people are feeling when I talk to them on the phone qoq, and we all know how we can lie far more effectively on the phone than face to face. It's crazy to suggest that communication is just as good with or without the veil.

I think the difference with a telephone call is that neither party can see the other's facial expressions or non-verbal cues. I would feel quite uncomfortable talking to someone if they could see my facial expressions/body language but I couldn't see theirs, especially if the reason I couldn't see theirs was because they were deliberately concealing themselves.

sorrell - the Afghans and Iraqis are intelligent people, they are not idiots.

YES I do know how much the Afghan and Iraqi people suffered under their respective regimes. But who the feck are we to TELL THEM how to run their lives ? 100 Iraqis are dying per day, so we have made life a bed of roses for them have we ?

But this is another thread altogther, thanks for the debate any way

martain - you are welcome to my home with your horrid boots, but you will have to pay for cleaning my carpet !

Good point. Imagine if, when you talk to someone on the phone, there's a camera attached to your phone which beams your face live to the person on the other end of the phone, but they don't have such a camera so you can only hear their voice.

Surely no-one could deny it would be somewhat alienating or unequal. Yellowrose? Anyone?

I don't think anyone here has implied that the Middle Eastern Muslims are stupid or idiots. Far from it.