Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

May be Mr Straw is freaked out that the women who come into his surgery with covered faces are hiding bombs behind their veils ? Honestly the man is a moron !

I hardly think so yellowrose.

spider - no the facial expression argument is a fig leaf (excuse pun) for Mr Staw's ignorance.

spider - may I ask how you can be so certain that he is not freaked by potential terrorists ?

so are muslims racist if they ask me to remove my shoes? (btw I don';t think tha they are)

And if not, why not?

martian - do you have facial expressions on your toes ? If so, then yes they are defo. racists

But yellow I agree with him. It's alienating. My kids are scared of people in these outfits and no-one has taught them to be. It's totally natural. I'm not going to tell my kids they're wrong and have no right to be scared just in case they offend people. Bollocks to that.

Nor would I demand someone take off a veil but I want them to be aware of the effect it has on certain people and to make informed choices about the veil and how it comes across.

Yellow you can't seriously believe that Jack Straw has brought up the veil thing because he thinks these women maybe carrying bombs. Sorry to be rude but that really is purile.

martian - many many cultures around the world ask their guests to remove their shoes when coming into their homes or holy places. I do as well as I have a lovely pale coloured Persian carpet in my living room and a toddler and I don't want people putting muck on it for my toddler to pick up and eat !!

Surely it is not just a Muslim thing. Have you ever been to a Japanese home ?

No, my point is that my cultural norm is to keep my shoes on when I go into a church. I'm funny like that I was raised that way

so if someone asked me to take of my shoes when I enter a mosque, are they being racist? are they insisting that I dress in a particular way? are thet imposing their cultural norm on me? And if not, why not?

Or, are they expecting a bit of give and take in a multi cultural UK?

Just like JS.

He didn't impose, he didn't expect, he didn't refuse to talk to them, he asked a question.

Or are we saying that some things can never be questioned. And if so , who decides these things?

So what would Mr Straw say if I said I was "freaked" by Jewish people wearing huge Stars of David and caps which mark them out as Jews ? I guess I would be called an anti-semite then, wouldn't I ?

So do you think I would be the victim of racism is I was asked to remove my shoes?

spider - no I don't mind you being rude !

Hi isn't asking for veil removal 'because it marks them out' at muslims, but because he feels he'd have a more effective and meaningful communication and connection with them if they weren't hiding behind a veil.

Fair point. Surely.

Can we never question anyones religious beliefs?

And if not, why not, and which religions have primacy, since the practice of one is often a 'blasphemy' to others?

Can we never question someones dress? Can Harry be forgiven for dressing as a Nazi?

Or shold asking a polite, respectful question not be considered an integral part of a healthy mulitcultural society?

if some are objecting to the question then I think we have real problems.

Problems I may say of our own making from the constant bending over backwards to ensure 'feelings are not hurt' and I'm not just talking about this current hoo-ha. You reap what you sow.

Yellowrose thinks the facial expression argument is rubbish. I disagree, I wouldn't fancy watching a film or drama where all the actors faces were covered with veils.

I don't remeber calling Mr Straw a racist. I said he was "ignorant" which is rather different, isn't it ? No, I don't think it is rude to ask someone to remove their shoes, whether for religious reasons or otherwise. In most cases I would think they were concerned about hygiene, like me.

A facial covering, if used as a religious symbol, just as the cross is for a Christian and the Star of David for a Jew is rather different to shoes though isn't it ? So I don't think your argument stands, martian.

I think asking a Muslim woman to remove her head or facial covering would be the equivalant of asking a Christian woman to remove her cross. It is the deliberate removal of a religious expression and as such I think it shows a lack of tolerance.

We do have a culture here where showing your face to others is considered polite and respectful. To hide your face when speaking to someone is almost as rude as to turn your back. I don't think you can use confession as an analogy as that is completely different and there is a reason for not seeing each other clearly.

Virtually the only times when people use clothes or other things such as masks to obscure their faces are when they wish to hide their identity, often to commit anti-social acts.

I don't personally have a problem with women wearing the niquab if that is their wish, but they must be aware of the connotations of it in this country. It may be normal in predominantly Muslim countries. It is not the norm in this country and people will draw their own conclusions as to why it is done.

no muslim woman was asked to uncover her hair....which is the bit mentioned in the Koran (according to the head of the Muslim Councl of GB, who said he had no probelms with JSs comments btw). The facial coverings tend to be more of a cultural issue, so I do thing the analogy stands

Freckle - surely people will "draw their own conclusions" out of ignorance as facial covering is used as a religious symbol of obedience to the Koran (any Muslims here please correct me if I am wrong on this point) not beacuse they are trying to hide something.

yellowrose, and why should religious views always take primacy over other views?

As I posted on this thread earlier, does this mean that I have to listen to the RE teacher in my school who tells me I should teach Creationism inmy science lessons. Her views are religious, mine are scientific, must her wishes 'win' becasue of that, and that alone?

And if so, where do we stop?

But the Koran does not require women to cover their faces, so it is clearly not a religious statement, but a cultural one. If the Koran did require this, how come there are so many different Muslim women out there who wear the hijab which only covers the hair and neck, or who go without any covering at all above the shoulders? Are they not devout Muslims?

Wearing the niquab is a personal choice, not a religious edict.

martain - I agree. I have read that the Koran only asks for "modesty" and not specifically for a facial covering (which is in fact a tribal thing only practiced by a minority of Muslim women, even in Mulsim countries). However, the Koran as the Bible and Torah can be interpreted in many ways. Some Muslims have chosen to construe it more stricly to include covering the face. Must they be punished for this ? Jews and Chrstians all over the world also choose how they dress. I haven't heard of anyone in London asking the Orthodox Jews in North London changing their manner of dress ?

martian - as a total non-believer of any god or religion I agree with your last post, gasp ! I am a Darwin fan !

BUT, I am talking about cultural/racial tolerance here, I am less concerned about what the Koran says. Live and let live.

Nobody is punishing anyone. JS merely requested that the veil be removed when speaking face to face.

Twisting what happens is what usually inflames situations. I noticed a headline which read "Straw blamed for veil attack". How bl**dy silly. The person to blame is the one who attacked the poor woman.

To take a simple request and turn it into a punishment demeans the whole debate.