Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

will buy boots and put the mud on order

Will you also champion me if I wish to enter a mosque in clean slippers?

You see, we do accept that our behavior has to be modified to help the feelings of others. We do it all the time. It is what oils the wheels of society. It is being kind and respectful, if you will.

But it does cut both ways. In our culture it is normal to see someones face.

If they really don't want to do it, fine, but it is a bloody funny world when we can't ask.

Yeah, the women under the Taliban who were quite literally starving to death on the streets because they weren't allowed to work, their daughters turned out of their schools, unable to leave their homes, and the women beated with iron bars on the street because they accidentally showed a glimpse of wrist were really CHOOSING how they lived weren't they? Ye gods, would you say who were we to interfere with how the German democratically elected government choose to deal with Jews or the Serbians choose to deal with Muslims?
Maybe it's not relevant (though actually I think a lot of people are upset by the full veil when they think how hard we fought for empancipation to see this symbol of utter oppression on our streets) but you did raise the subject.

I think the Iraq war is a TOTALLY different matter to the intervention in Afghanistan. It is you who conflate them as if all Arab countries are the same.
Of course I realise they are intelligent people which is why I think treating women like shit and shutting down schools is wrong.

kitty - yes you are welcome to wear your bikini in any Mosque, but it's a tad chilly at the mo. don't you think love ?

But she isn't welcome though, is she yellowrose? The people whose civil rights you are championing do not afford the same courtesy and inclusivity to others. That's sort of the point of all this, really.

sorrell - I keep not wanting to get dragged into this, the Afghans are NOT Arabs (they are Indo-Europeans) and would be very very offended if you called them that, as much as say a Scotsman/woman or Welshman/woman being called English !

Perhaps you should ask Afghan/Iraqi women what they actually think about the invasion of their countries ? You may be shocked by what they say.

green - I was trying to be funny, and quite clearly failed !

I champion civil rights and human rights for everyone no matter what their religion or race, that is quite my point. If Muslims do not grant you YOUR civil rights when you live in their country you should object and be vocal about it. You shouldn't take away THEIRS in retaliation.

But it doen't break the law to enter a mosque wearing shoes (in the UK), but I very much doubt that I would be allowed to do that. I think someone would stop me.

You have infered that this is acceptable because it is a religious belief, so I repeat my question, does my RE collegue have the right to insist that I teach creationism.

I am no more in favour of the shocking foreign policy of Britain and America towards the Middle Eastern countries than you are, yellowrose. I am ashamed of what has been carried out in my name, as I believe many of us are. I joined in campaigning against the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as actively as my circumstances allowed.

But I see that as a rather different topic from the one in debate here, which is the distribution of rights and social courtesies within our society here in multicultural Britain, and the degree to which the various cultures represented here should accomodate one another's customs and preferences. The fact that I feel aggrieved about a perceived imbalance in the degree to which my sensibilities as an indigenous white British woman are weighed against those of other ethnicities certainly does not imply that I hate, fear, despise or otherwise reject other cultures or that I am in favour of violent and cowardly behaviour. I find some of the assumptions on this thread quite staggering.

Very nicely worded second paragraph (well both actually but the second one is smashing ) and one with which I whole heartedly agree!

thank you!

Could be a bit chilly, yes, but they might have central heating and I could run around a bit to keep warm

martian the answer is NO ! You must not be FORCED to teach somthing that runs counter to your beliefs. Excellent point and totally relevant to mine !

As I understand it, it would be AGAINST a devout Muslim woman's religious belief to remove her facial covering for any one other than her husband or close male relative.

So unless Mr Straw is married to the woman, he is not supposed to see her face ! In fact what a good idea, is he looking for a wife ?

yeah ded good that - what does it mean?

am not being fecetous - i can't even spell it

kittywitts with regard to the bikini issue - there is such a thing as respect

law or no law.

its not the law for my husband to open the car door - its good manners - respectful.

we shouldnt judge everything on the laws we have in place some things are just good manners and common sense surely

green - I totally disagree. If you were aware of the extent of Islamophobia being fanned by the flames of the wars going on in that region, you would not think it so staggering that Mr Straw is a mule ! He may not be playing the Islamphobia card, but he is a fool to think that he is helping to enhance a multicultural/multiracial Britain.

Hello custy, haven't seen you around for a bit

I fully agree, but repect has to go in both directions.
there are cultural norms in the UK that should be at least considered

The man is being lambasted for asking a question, one which he fully accepted the answer 'No'.

I think we have the right to ask questions. I value that right, even though it is not formed by a religious belief

If a fathers for justice man in a batman suit went to see Jack S or someone in a motor cycle helmet you would expect them to remove the head gear so they could talk properly. I don't think it's an unreasonable request. Covering the face is not required by Islam as anyone who's studied it will know. It's a cultural practice which impedes the ability of women to lead full lives although of course they often choose that as do women choose to wear high heels (even me) which stop them being able to walk as fast as men. Our choice, stupid though it may be as a choice.

dont smile when you haven't seem me around for a bit

i've been very ill.

I would have thought it was good manners and common sense to let someone see your face when you're talking to them.

Oh no, what with? Are you better?

what has been the matter!?

Are you better now?

Dh has ahad a 'fluey' thing, real not man flu, he was really rough!

aww ta - feel much better now your nice - as a catholic i do guilt really well

flu - i am nearly better - i can mn after all!

martian - questions and debate are always a bloody good thing if you ask me esp. with a glass or two of Vodka, if your religion allows a good drink

I don't think any Muslim or non- Muslim is trying to shut down debate though are they, some Muslims have even agreed with Straw haven't they ?