Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

I guess they are talking to community leaders because veiled/hijab-wearing women in the area might feel intimidated and under threat, after all this is not a random attack it is a hate crime.

A few weeks back a Somalian woman had her veil ripped off and her face punched in, I think these attacks are happening more and more, maily as the media are protraying 'mozlems' to be taking over the God fearing Christian world. Well that does appear to be a fear on this thread at least.

Btw GS I had no idea my name was an insult, its what a girl at school used ot call me as she could never remember my name. She was Irish (so now wondering if I was being insulted)

no, i dont think he is. however there is powerplay i think he has not given creedence to - i dont think its deliberate in any way but if your going to someone for advice about something serious - and that man also happens to be very powerful then that could beseen as bullying even if the bullying intention wasn't there - if you follow?!

i think he would cause less outrage bisarrely if he asked some slappers to cover up "for decency sake"

i dont think intention was to restrict choice or even suggest it.

i think JS probably sees it as a form of supression actually. but what did strike me was that this seems to have just come out of no where

somone from the Muslim Council in his constituency was on the news when it first broke and said something along the lines of " why didn't he ask us to get some women together so he could have some dialogue and form a more well rounded opinion"

which i thought was fair comment.

the great thing about this country is our choice. The Qu'oran doesn't expressly say anything and its a cultural thing. i am sure most women would think - that they would have a better life if they showed their faces - we dont know that - better for whom? soiciety at large - dont make me laugh the percentage of women who completely cover themselves is negligable - that is the least of the islamaphobia we have to worry about in this country believe me.

the thing i worry most about is muslim women who believe that it says in the Qu'oran that they must.

becuase somones not telling them the truth. therefore their decision is wrongly being based on religeous grounds rather than cultural grounds.

culturally i find lettering on the arses of little girls tracksuits offensive.

Custy having spoken to my SIL about this (and no I never go too deeply into it with her I don't want to get into a fight over it). She has read the Quran, studied the Hadith and decided that full covering and nothing else will do. I opt for the Headscarf, I know that a face veil would be impossible to incorporate into my everyday life.

Having said that I wouldn't impose my decision on anyone else similarly my SIL has never ever said to me you are wrong, we've had debates on the matter and our decisions are our own.

The Quran is available in many languages so any woman who can read can come to her own conclusions really. SIL has studies the orginal arabic version.

is there a kind of "one upmanship" or erm... "i am more godlier" thing about it.

does your sil feel superior to you? ( totally off topic just wanted to know>

Custy, I don't think so to be honest, she's the sweetest of women, she just firmly believes that the veil is required and anything else is 'innovation'... (her words not mine).

I guess it does depend on which school of thought one follows, there are four schools of thought in the Islamic faith and each one has slight differences....

Apparently there is a headline on the front of the Express today saying 'ban the veil'. Its all gone totally over the top. There are alot of outraged people who could probably count on one hand the number of times they have met a woman in full veil.

Fuzzy, re your name

It was used as a description of the people fighting the British troups in Egypt in the lat 19th centuary...deffinatly negative, racisit conortations.

But your name always makes me smile because it reminds me of the mad corporal in Dads Army (which seemed to be on TV for all of my childhood) He always used to say 'The Fuzzywuzzys, they don't like it up 'em'......as if anyone would!

and now you have 'reclaimed' the name as well!

Just a thought regarding JS and the veil. Isn't it a matter of speaking as equals - so whilst we all cope happily on the phone, because neither of us can see each other, if just one person is veiled at a face to face meeting, you lose the sense of 'an equal playing field'.

It illustrates thre arrogance that comes to any party too long in power.
An MP is an employee.
If I had a member of customer facing staff who ordered women customers to expose themselves before he would deal with them, that employee would be history.

But it's not 100% his fault.
He's in a "safe" constituency, ie one where people don't think about the performance of their MP, just for for anything with the right colour badge.
They deserve what they get.

Saadia, I think the veil is a horrible thing.
I don't like speaking to someone if I can't see their face ( that's why it can be so difficult on MN, so much of our communication is non verbal and driven by facial and bidily signals). It's not alright in this culture to do that. These women live in THIS country and should abide by the social etiquette in THIS country. If they don't like that they they should stop complaining and go somewhere else where it is socially acceptable to the indiginous poulation for them to cover their faces FGS.

DC, in the interview I heared he actualy said that his constituency members are his employers, so I don't think that your point is lost on him.

Did you not hear the interview?

But he didn't ORDER anyone to remove their veil. He asked politely if they would mind removing it so that he could speak properly face-to-face (not face-to-veil). If anyone objected, he would respect that, but apparently all of the women he asked were happy to comply - which does then rather beg the question of why they wear the veil as presumably JS is neither their husband nor a close member of the family.

There are plenty of other reasons why it can be difficult to pick up on facial expressions: people have strokes or facial injuries. Different cultures use different body language. People who are visually impaired have to cope without picking up on facial expressions. This whole thing has been blown out of all proportion.

As someone else has said on here it would be acceptable to ask someone to remove sunglasses or a baseball cap so why not the face covering of the veil. They can decline your request if they wish.

I have now read on a few different posts (on Mn and other sites I frequent ) that Mr Straw is partialy deaf and needs to lip read to aid understaning.

Does anyone know if this is true?

and what would happen is this is the case? One assumes that there must be a similar number of deaf people in the Muslim world, how on earth do they cope if they can't lip read?

No he isn't, I can't stand all this politically correct crap, let them get on with their jobs. People sit at their desks all day stirring up all this rubbish.

Jack Straw isn't but if you look on the Woman's Hour radio 4 forums about this, many of the posts are.

Partialy deaf? You have lost me there mt?

Are the posters partialy deaf?

here

Now you've lostyy me MB. Have I made a deaf typo?

we are confusing each other

I thought your post of 8.55

'Jack Straw isn't but if you look on the Woman's Hour radio 4 forums about this, many of the posts are'

I thought you were posting about JS not being partially deaf, but tat lots of the posters on MB were partially deaf.

When I couldn't find the posts I then thought you were talking about metaphorical deafness!
Deaf to progress, deaf to a mul;ticuotural ideal! LOL

The problems of not having face to face communication eh!?

Peoples fake outrage at seeing women in the veil. What on earth is there to be enraged about. I'd go as far as curious, but outraged? At what?

Many are just using it as an excuse to have a pop.

Haha MB, maybe. No, just meant that I don't think he was racist. He was respectfully asking and respectfully accepted the answer he got, whether it was a yes or no. A lot of the stuff on WH has nothing to do with respect.

i dont know where any of you live but a lot of you are saying you dont see women wearing the veil i work in luton and i see loads of women wearing the full black veil with just their eyes showing and on a few occasions i have seen women who even have their eyes covered as well!

there is an area in luton which is predominantly asian and as a white woman i feel very intimidated when i walk through there

from having grown up in the blackburn area and having friends still living there i know blackburn has areas like this as well

i have a muslim friend who has recently been disowned and threatened by her family because she will not cover up and she is too western - she was born here! she is now living at a secret address scared of what her family will do if they find her! she wears trousers and doesnt dress outrageously but her family wanted her to cover up totally complete with veil. how many of the women who wear the veil are doing so through choice and not through fear of reprisals?

there are highly educated asian women who are able to make the choice but equally there are many women with little or no education that believe the must do as the men in their family tell them

they dont seem to have freedom of choice freedom of speech and everything else they all live in the uk for if they did then there wouldnt be any of the honour killings you read about