Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

Nulnulcat, so sorry to hear about your friend.

That's a good point Nulnulcat. Class and opportunity are just as much an issue here as with any other issue of women's rights in what is supposed to be a fair society,. regardless of their religion.

kittywits I'm sorry but this argument that people who live here should copy us or get lost is really not the most intelligent. Where do you draw the line before you end up in fascist territory?

can someone answer my question? - if you know

why is it ok to wear western clothes privately but then to cover them up when you go outside - jeans even that completely cover legs?

Saadia, as I agree with kittywits, I feel I must reply to your question with anohter question, if you where to visit saudi arabia, turkey and other cultures different to our own, would you not adhere to there guidelines and rules out of respect to them. If people want to live in britain, then I am sorry, then try to at least blend a little with OUR culture.

lillymolly visitin and living are two different things aren't they. I've been born and bought up here, my grandparents have lived and worked here contributing to the economy and society, I have as much right as you to wear what I wish.

And define British cultural clothing??
Gypsy skirts- Aren't they Romanian Fashion
Jeans- Aren't they american
Ethnic print tops -Aren't they Indian

GT, outfits that define the silhouette don't meet the requirements of Hiujaab, so they are covered by the outer loose garment. Arab women (especially), tend to wear the most beautiful designer outfits beneath their Abaya's

lillymolly I dealt with this point further down -those countries have certain laws and people go there knowing that. The UK has not passed any laws demanding that visitors adhere to their ways.

But I have a British passport, my kids go to school here and will most probably grow up here, we pay a lot of tax, many of my relatives are doctors in the NHS and teachers in the state sector - we contribute a lot. I don't see why you should tell me how I should dress any more than I should tell you how to dress.

Muslims do not dress in hijab/niqab to rile you. They believe it is their duty. How does it harm anyone?

Saadia, what do you think of the point made below that there's an element of one-upmanship, 'I'm more Muslim than you', among some British women who adopt the niqab, particularly those who aren't of Gulf Arab background?

TBH edam I don't know. The people I know who wear the hijab do it for very personal and sincere reasons, but obviously we cannot really know other peoples' motivations.

Thanks for answering, Saadia, I know it must be a faff being MN's resident expert on Islamic culture...

But your point that people wearing the niqab aren't doing it to piss anyone off... the thing is they are making a very visible statement of something - 'I don't want you to see me'. And that will get a reaction, inevitably.

Edam, I don't think women wear the veil because they have a holier than thou attitude, reading through this thread alone, shows how much hostility one has to face wearing the veil, so anyone who does it I would imagine does it because they do honestly and unshakeably believe that it's what they are asked of by God.

I couldn't do it, as it would make my life very difficult, although I am lucky enough to work with people who are very tolerant and open minded.

As an aside, I've noticed the women who do wear the face veil in my area are predomiantly Somalian. So it does look very much like a cultural issue too.

The more Muslim than you thing is a view that has been expressed by some Muslim women in the papers, though, (ie people who don't wear the niqab) and I think on this thread IIRC.

Does anybody honestly think that Britain would be a better place if we showed the same level of tolerance and respect for human rights as Saudi Arabia?

I really don't like the argument that people should go back to where they came from. How far back do you go, when you consider that many of Britain's Muslims were born here? I am descended from Huguenots who came here from France. Should I go back there if I don't like what is happening here?

no it's not a faff edam, in fact I've never been called an expert in anything before so I'll take it as a compliment but I think we do need more dialogue and understanding generally.

Yes I suppose those people are making a statement but if people knew the thinking behind it they might not be so offended by it.

But my feeling is that many people who object to the Hijab object to Muslims full stop. They don't like to see such an overt symbol of such different people in their midst.

Even if some hijab wearers are making the statement that they don't want to be seen, is that so bad?

I get worried when I see skinheads, groups of teenagers (we have a lot of trouble round here with juvenile crime), people with unleashed dogs - hijab-wearers are harmless.

While I agree that the women who are fully veiled are not doing it to piss people off, many people do find it disconcerting.

In the same way I am sure that most people who go to Egypt, say, and wear shorts are not doing it to be rude either.

While I am not sying that women should be denied the right to wear what they want, they have to do this isn the knowledge that it does make a difference to how other people view them. In just the same way that I didn't want Egyptian people to think poorly of me, so I worse long trousers and loose tops.

I have a mojor worry that some muklsims seem to feel that their cultural practices can never be questioned because they are religious in origin.

My feelings are just as important to me, even if they are not religious in origin, and I accept that people have a right to question them.

Hey Saadia, glad I made you smile! On the teenagers thing, my resident's association made me laugh by writing that they'd decided not to put a bench up on a patch of grass round the corner for fear that it would prove a gathering point for 'menacing youths'.

LOL at the 'go back then' comment. Central Africa is going to be bloody crowded then!

Dh will be off, but will he go back to his Lituanian Jewish roots ot his Polish Cathoic roots, Or back to Canada, or India, or belgium, New York or Argentena????

So many places he could be deported to!

I'd be buggered if I had to go back to where I came from as my mother's adopted and we really have no idea... and on my dad's side we'd have to choose between Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

amongst muslim's I've also met Muslim women who think that any woman who wears the hijaab, thinks she's betterthan other women. It's not the case. I know it took a lot of soul searching and was the hardest thing I ever did.

It's not just a piece of cloth, it does make one stand out, and people are forever questioning you, making assumptions about you. Some talk to me as if I my hijaab covers an exceptionally low IQ, the bus driver said to me 'Do. You. Have. TEN. PEE' really really slowly.. to which I replied 'yes mate, but the fares £1.50 and that's the amount I've given you, why'd you want TEN. PEEE??' , I'm glad I wear hijaab and am in the public with it, at least then the people I meet will know that a headscarf doesn't mean I'm stupid or oppressed, or foreign!!!!

One of the girls in last years sixth form wore it. Initily in the lower schoo she had to wear it in school colours of dark blue or grey, but in the sixth form she wore a blinding range of colours, most often with jeans and a loose top. No-one who spent more than a few seconds with her would think her anything but the vibrant young woman she was.

But I am glad I could see her face.

Maybe if the people concerned didnt use black for their outfits then children wouldnt be so scared.I think bright colours maybe more acceptable and wouldnt seem to be so threatening.is there a reason its black ?

my little brother is convinced they are all Batmen! but he is 5.

No...Jack isn't being racist.

my culture involves drinking alcohol but when in dubai or other arab countries i dont do it and i cover up out of respect therfore can i refuse to cover my legs and shoulders if asked?