Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

I think what he said was fair enough, and as usual the its all been whipped up out of proportion.

I am going to run away after saying this but what really annoys me is we go to certain countries in the world and are told how to dress, what to drink etc yet in this country we have to be tolerant etc. No I am not racist but think live and let live applies every where

Just a quick thought-is it in the Qu'ouran about full veils? If it's not there properly then it's made up. By whom, men? If my husband couldn't trust me to go out without full veils then I'd leave him. What does it say about the marriages, the women are subservient and not trustworthy? Or men are so uncontrollable they have to look at evryone else's woman?? I expect people in this country to respect the country's rules, if I went to Saudi in shorts, my husband, not me would get banged up and flogged. I have an Eygyptian s/inlaw and I joked about it, She was categoric that tourists or no, if I pissed around and showed my ankles or legs in an innappropriate manner, my dh would be flogged for not cntrolling me. If you live here, show some respect, try and integrate and don't keep yourselves apart. You are nothing special, you're women like us. I don't feeel it necessary to hide my face and TBH, I'm not butt ugly. If it's not a religious necessity then don't do it. It this sort of thing that seperates people, it';s us and them. There is so much hatred and bullshit at the m oment. I think everyone should be painted green and be naked, then we'd all be the same. Concentrate on saving the world we have not destroying it. My nephew is out in Iran and he's coming home next weekend for one whole week. My sister(his mum) says he can't talk about it for fear of reprisals and that he's changed in this year. He's off to Afghanistan in two weeks and we just hope he comes back. He's 19 yrs old

ills and jollymum - I totally agree with you. I am not racist, but I do believe that if you choose to live in a country then you should adopt the countries rules/culture as much as possible. Otherwise what is the point of moving country, you choose to move to a different country because you like what that country stands for.

I read an article (cant remember who by) but he was saying that some muslim youths do have problems and he put these down to the fact that they are living in a western civilisation but with rules and culture of the east.

Perhaps its not the womens fault, perhaps its the husbands, but I still think they ought to intergrate a little more.

I was in a supermarket once and saw 2 women in full head dress peer at each other and then they spoke and said oh its you. They knew each other but didn't recognise each other

I do feel these head dresses disguise a persons identity, in some shops you have to remove motor bike helmets so why not head dresses

I read Jack Straw's column and it seemed pretty harmless, although if I was a muslim I would have been a bit annoyed about him (as a non-muslim) commenting on whether it was or wasn't part of the muslim religion to wear a veil. To me it would be a bit like a non-christian arguing about whether it was a religious requirement to wear a cross.

Initially I completely agreed with him, and then I thought about other situations where people have to communicate without picking up on facial expressions. I don't know much about confession, but priests listen without being able to see somebody's face, so maybe there is something to be said for developing listening skills?

I am not really clear how many women wear the full veil. I don't live in a very muslim area (compared to Blackburn for instance), but living in Greater London I see lots of women with their head's covered, but hardly anybody with their faces covered. Is this because women who cover their faces don't wonder around so much, or because there aren't that many of them? Although it is very common place to come across some one with their head covered in a work situation, I have never gone into a shop and been served by somebody in a burka - is this because they are discriminated against, or because they don't go out to work?

When I do see somebody in full burka, I have no idea whether she is wearing a Chanel suit, whether she is wearing the burka because she is oppressed, or because it is a very personal decision in line with her religious beliefs (and possibly a rebellion against her family).

Again, perhaps it is different if you live somewhere where there are muslim 'ghettos', but I think this story is a mountain out of a mole hill. As a muslim woman said on the radio today, there are plenty of other religions who separate themselves from the rest of society, but nobody finds them a problem. In general I think everybody should integrate with the society around them, but are there more women wondering around in burkas than there are hassidic jews or seventh day adventists? Perhaps it is a problem for Jack Straw in his constituency, but I think that perhaps this is a very specific local story that has been blown up.

i have lived in areas that have been predominantly asian and have been very anti west adverts for certain things have been ripped down lads mags burnt etc because of offence. as a 19 year old student wearing the fashion of the time which was hot pants and bra tops to go clubbing in i had abuse shouted after me and one one occasion stones thrown at me!! i was living in nottingham not saudi!!

if they want the freedom to wear what they want then show the respect back to allow us to wear what we want i do not want to be covered from head to toe face covered etc because it offends them i want the freedom to wear what i want which by the way is no longer hot pants and bra tops but if i wanted to i should be allowed!

the way things are going with race relations being told what we can or cant say without fear of being accused of racism how long is it before we get told what we can wear in public in case it offends someone!

on the other hand the oldish men that go to my local swimming pool on monday mornings the same time as toddler splash and insist on wearing speedos now they should be forced to cover up!!

this is worrying

Well, maybe in 30yrs time we will all be wearing the veil as by then we will be all so scared and cowed by the muslim fanatics that they will take over this country, which is what they want to do anyway.
They don't want to move back to a muslim country, they want to turn britain muslim and they are doing so.. drip by drip by drip.
Goodbye, Great Britain.

I think many people have believed, for many years, in the importance of body language and non-verbal communication as part of the way human beings relate to eachother - it is very difficult to relate to someone with the same level of ease if they are veiled, in my experience.

I am not an expert on religion at all but it seems that christianity underwent a 'reformation' and some radical changes, and maybe other religions have too; surely it is time that muslims could have a reforming of their religion which could re-assess issues such as the veil, to see if they are actually important in the modern era; if they are great, but is it time there was a reformation of ideas as part of a considered community response to the current terror situation?

That is a completely wrong thing to have done saadia ( in the news report). But people are getting really fed up, frustrated and angry by the amount of sway muslims seem to hold in this country now. We have cowered enough for fear of making Muslims angry. This is not a muslim country and I think they should remove their veils when speaking to westeners, just as we have to abide by social and religious etiquette when in muslim countries or do muslims want to have it their own way wherever they go??
I think the tide is turning regarding tolerence towards other cultures. Political correctness has gone too far and the man and woman on the street are starting to speak out against all this rubbish and unfairness.

so are you saying that you believe the veil should be banned?

Hear! hear! Kittywits. Pity we can't all let our true feelings out as we will all get visits from the PC police for having free speech.

Actually if you look here , it would seem that Britain's approach to the issue of the veil is the most tolerant and laid-back. Yet the simple asking of a question (to remove it when speaking face-to-face) has prompted accusations of racism and intolerance. Perhaps Muslims here should appreciate where they live and the nature of the country more. If extreme stances are taken regarding the issue, it may well be that Britain will legislate too.

Regarding the comment "Pity we can't all let our true feelings out as we will all get visits from the PC police for having free speech".

Do you think that everyone who doesn't agree with your point of view is somehow hiding their true feelings?

I am all for free speech, Ripeberry, but my true feelings bear no relation whatsoever to the ones you expressed in your post of 10:01:55 PM.

I am not being politically correct, nor am I hiding my true feelings - I just disagree with you.

And that's another advantage of free speech.

Round of applause for kittywits, speaking some sense, and putting so much more eloquently then I could have done.

That's laughable Ripeberry, Muslims don't now nor have they ever had great sway on anything in England. Gosh you're paranoid aren't you, why one earth would you think that Englands turning Muslim drip by drip????
Most muslims want to get on with their lives as best they can.
I said originally that JS can request all he likes, it doesn't mean his request is going to be accepted.

All the women I have ever met who have taken the veil, veil because they want to, very often i nthe face of firence oppoistion in the family.

Very interesting to read this thread. The news report about other countries in Europe banning veils/etc in public places is thought provoking; could someone in a burkha/veil/religious sack be hiding a bomb?????

as well as allowing freer communication etc as prev. discussed here, it would also be more secure in those kind of places, with the sad fact of certain sections of our societies all over the world using terrorism.

Just wanted to say that I do not feel in any way 'cowed' by muslims. About the only effect the muslim faith has had on me over the past few years is to make me feel safer when I walked back from the station on dark nights past the mosque as there were more people around.

I cannot think of one single way in which the muslim population have changed my lifestyle, and would be really interested to know exactly what they have been doing to all you people who are so het up about them.

Hear hear fuzzywuzzy. I just don't get where this "Muslims are taking over" rant comes from. Muslims are a tiny tiny minority in the UK. We really don't want any influence over how non-Muslims live, but those of us who were born here and live here do not want to always be told that just by practising our religion we are offending/scaring/irritating people.

I despair, I really do.
I consider myself a well-intergrated Muslim and I am so totally fed up of Muslims and Islam reflected negatively in the news every single day.
Do people honestly think that Muslims are going to take over the coutry and make everyone live under Shariah law?? Its totally ridiculous. Wake up fgs!
I know hundreds of Muslims. I don't know anyone who wears a veil and I don't know anyone who hasn't intergrated into society. They have worked hard and have done better career-wise than a lot of the indigenous population.
Why is there so much coverage and emphasis given to a handful of idiots as if they are the norm?
Why do people believe a twisted and obsessed media as if its honest and true?
We're all fed up of this.

Actually having re-read some of the posts, I think the main fear stems fro mthe alien, the unknown.

I assisted in a school trip to the local firestation not so long ago, my three year old was utterly terrified of the fireman in full get-up, it took me a while to convince her that he was a nice man, and should (god forbid), the need ever arise she should never run away from a fireman, as he/she is there to help.

Which makes me think, that more Muslim women should volunteer to go into local schools and tlak about our faith and our dress, and that despite wearing the scarves and whatnot, we are thinking feeling human beings, not ulike most women really, with similar aspirations and desires.

I also always make a point of wearing a colouful Hijab, I think the all black can seem frightening too I guess....at any rate I've struck up many a covnersation at our local busstop on the strength of my pretty head covering.

Looked at Saadia's link and just thought oh, for goodness' sake. Yes, tearing a veil off someone and shouting abuse is wrong and unpleasant and the police should follow up any complaint made by the woman involved. But WHY are they 'talking to community leaders' about it? It's one unpleasant incident. If someone tore off my watch and shouted something rude at me, they wouldn't be talking to ruddy community leaders about it, would they? (That did actually happen to me when I was first in London - didn't even bother reporting it).

I did once live in a Pakistani area where some of the men were very intimidating to western women. Shouting abuse at anyone who wasn't covered up. My sister got spat at when she was wearing her school uniform, ffs. (Which was really NOT alluring in any way at all, not that that would be any excuse.)

One particularly nasty little shit tried to grope her. Luckily our rescue dog had escaped, came running round the corner and knocked him flat. I know, there are plenty of non-Muslim men who attack women. But in that area, it was clear that there were lots of men who were downright hostile to women and felt anyone who wasn't covered up was fair game for harassment.

Fuzzy,indeed.If more Muslim omen ere involved in mainstream activities it ould help a great deal.
An earlier poster asked hy she never saw women with their faces covered serving in shops.

Exactly

These women are separated from m/s society not only by their dress but by their habits.
I can't think I have ever seens a fully veiled oman teaching/holding a surgery/working in an office and so on.

My baby was delivered by a woman wearing a headscarf. Weird to me but wwhatever.Had she been wearing something over her face,then I would not have accepted it.

And agree Edam.If one beirdy weirdy telling John Reid to piss off is unrepresentative of most Muslims,by the same token,neither is this arse representative of most Christians.

Massive overreaction.