I'm astonished that so many people are in favour of...

[emkana]

... smacking

crunchie, I know you know this really - there are lots of other ways to get your children to do what you want than use the naughty step & smack them!!!!

bribes

Not big on smacking but heard this conversation in Tesco the other day:

"Becky darling dont do that mummy has her angry face on"
Meanwhile becky darling is wrecking the joint, tantrums etc. going blue in the face.
"Now Becky darling tahts not the way mummy told you to ask for things is it" Menawhile becky is screaming blue murder punching and kicking on the floor and mummy is carrying on shopping. Do I have permission to slap Becky darling?

I was smacked occassionally as a child and to be honest it hasn't done me any harm infact sometimes I look back and laugh at a few funny instances where I did get smacked. No harm done I am not emotionally scarred although I wasn't beaten day and night which is a completely different thing.)
We fuss about too many things these days, "No smacking, no sports day, teachers have no control in classrooms, this syndrome, that syndrome for every medical problem, compensation nation". Our parents and grandparents didn't have all this stuff!!
I threaten to smack more than I actually have smacked ,we as parents should be allowed to do what we all feel is best for our children. Who am I to tell someone they cannot smack their child (not beat or hit them with implements though definately do not agree with that) and who am I to tell someone they don't have to smack their child.
With these sorts of debates you will always get conflict of opinion. All mumsnetters, do what you feel is right for your little ones. Don't let anybody else tell you otherwise. No one is ever going to agree on this subject.

No, Liesel, but you are very welcome to smack her mother

I was smacked 4 times in my life.

Once, for disobeying my mother and nearly running into a busy road.

Once, for acting up in church. I was not taken to church at all till I was 4, b/c my parents felt young children shouldn't go until they could show respect for God. Well, I started grousing b/c another child was playing with toys in Church and was warned to stop or be spanked.

I got spanked.

Another time, for backtalking to my mother re: cleaning out my cupboard. I was 8.

Final time when I ws 10. I was arguing w/my sister and handwashing a skirt in the basin. My father hated shouting and fighting, so he came down the hall and said, 'Take it to your room, I don't want to hear it.' W/o thinking, I threw the wet garment at him and snapped, 'You shut up.'

I feel I deserved those times.

We were brought up by loving parents. But love also meant discipline.

No back talking your parents or adult relatives/teachers/etc., no disobedience w/regards to personal safety and respect for God.

I was smacked once in memory (may have been more as a toddler though) I was 6. No memory of what I did. My parents were at best disinterested in me, and I think I was fairly well behaved as a child because I was left on my own a lot.

I love my ds who is 2.5 more than life itself (and his sister, dd, who is 4 weeks). I do smack him very occassionally though - for hurting other children intentionally (which doesn't happen often) or throwing stones (he's learnt to skim - and does it without water! And unfortunately has good aim.)

Dh smacks when he loses his temper - this I'm against, and is something of debate between the two of us.

Lovely post magicfarawaytree!

I don't believe in smacking when your in a foul mood although I know it happens its just one of those things. I hardly ever smack let alone if I'm in a foul mood, for e.g. this morning I was in a foul mood after a late night argument with dp last night and we woke still not talking (but thats an entirely different thread) anyway found that ds1 aged 6 had used his Doctor Who sonic srewdriver pen and had drawn all over the wall. I was livid and to be honest could have gladly smacked him as he is old enough to know that it is wrong. I didn't smack him but I didn't pussyfoot around him either he got a stern telling off and for his punishment he is going to be early tonight mising Dr who repeats and is painting over the pen marks when he gets in from school. But the mood I was in I could have easily swung for him, you can see how sometimes parents do smack even when there not in the best of moods.

Agreed, that was a lovely store magicfarawaytree.

My mother brought us up to receive a smack when we were naughty and no, it didn't do me any harm.

I have 2 ds 5yrs. I decided I didn't want to smack them and I never have, ever. I always promote the 'no matter how angry we are, we do not smack' and it works, for us. They receive punishment and they don't walk all over me.

My xh smacked ds one evening when they were staying with him. My tiny ds was utterly devastated and talks about it even though it was a year ago. In the event, he wasn't the guilty party (long story) but he still got the smack. I was furious, we had agreed we would never do it.

It pains me to see my friends children receiving a smack because I personally don't think its necessary.

Then again, its their method of parenting. I have no beef with my mother about her smacking us, its just my own personal choice. I couldn't do it.

Am pretty by all this.

Greeny and Hunker and Awen and etc are spot on, esp re the circular arguement

Nothing to do with effectiveness or not, really. I don't think kids who are smacked turn out delinquent, though I think it's taking a real risk with the relationship.

I just don't want to be the sort of parent who inflicts physical pain on my kids. For any reason. End of story.

children learn by example
violence teaches violence
its so bloody obvious i could cry
ever heard the phrease 'pick on someone your own size'?
hitting children, however you justify it to yourself, is BULLYING.
Harsh words/saying spiteful things can be just as painful and leave as many scars. so why oh why do we persist in believeing that these are the only two options??
if you cant think of any other way to handle your kids, then do yourselves and them a favour and seek help. there are people in the world who can teach you these things.

My mum smacked me NappiesGalore, and I hardly ever smack my children infact I cannot actually remenber the last time my eldest son was smacked. I use stern talking, sitting in the naughty corner, taking special toys away I do not believe violence breeds violence. My mum was a loving caring parent and we were given a smack whenever she felt she needed to that DOES NOT make me violent as I would be smacking my children and anybody else that gets in my way all the time. That statement is actually TOSH!!!
Its statements like yours that make other parents feel that they cannot punish their own children as THEY SEE FIT!

I think that smacking a child is a personal choice for every parent and not really anyone elses business. You don't hear people raising the issue of isolation punishment (shut in a room, time out etc) - a mental punishment rather than a physical one! You could argue that both were bad or good depending on how they are used. This is what it all boils down to, how is the punishment used, is it excessive force or a small shock tactic. I have smacked my ds however I have had to stop as for him it was not as effective as using the time out. My parents smacked both me & my brother and I am one of the biggest softies goings - there is no proof smacking encourages violence, beatings yes but this is a very different kettle of fish.

When people talk about "breaking a childs spirit" it sounds like the child in question must be undergoinging a complete threshing. I totally feel that a sharp smack to the back of the leg when a child has put itself or others in mortal danger, like running out into the street, is not only justified but essential.
My 2 yr old DD does not yet have the communication skills to allow her to fully understand the implications of some of her actions and no amount of reasoning will work. But a smack lets her know that she has done something dangerous.
I think smacking a child in anger is giving wrong signals to a child who is wrestling with her own feelings. We are adults and should be able to control our tempers after all.
Children need boundries.

How about hair pulling? You could do that - would inflict the same amount of pain and be a warning. Or perhaps pinching? How about a well-aimed kick?

WHY is it OK to be violent towards a small person?

I was smacked regularly as a child, both as metered out punishment and out of my mother's frustration with postnatal depression. Being smacked as a child DOES teach you lots of things.

1. It tought me to be a fantastic liar. I would say anything to avoid the consequenses. It has taken me years and years to get out of the habbit of lying.

2. Fear. I was so scared of my mother. Just the sound of her walking past my room would make me shiver for fear of what might come next. And it wasn't that the smacking was too hard or left marks or anything. I'm sure it would be called 'reasonable chastisement'. It was the fear of her anger that came with it.

3. Nothing I do will ever be good enough. Which I'm sure was a nice little contributing factor to my own postnatal depression a couple of years ago.

I do not smack my DS. I know that the urge to do it doesn't come from the need to punnish, but my own frustration. But I have never, and will never take that step too far into hitting him.

I think that there should be more help available to parents full stop.

I have smacked my ds's in the past and I don't think it works particularly. What works for us is time out (disagree with Penelope Leach on this, think it does work as a punishment as things like smacking are a form of negative attention). Also absolute consistency between me and dh (had to work at this, took years) and grandparents, childminders (other carers) and school.

But I also suspect that it can be hard for parents to use alternative methods of discipline if they were themselves smacked as children. Not everybody automatically knows how to calmly put kids on time out or be assertive rather than aggressive when under extreme pressure. I certainly didn't and I needed to almost 'train' myself to learn parenting behaviour which worked.

By aggressive I mean out of control smacking in anger and any other form of out of control discipline - shouting and screaming included, where the parent has clearly lost the plot.

More parenting courses would be good and not just programmes like Supernanny, which I personally find unbearable (it is the last thing I want to watch at the end of a stressful day).

I worry that the smacking debate makes many parents out to be big, bad ogres and ignores the fact that we are human beings as well. We get stressed out by our children's behvaviour, we often have to hold down stressful jobs and at the same time cook, clean, drive kids to a million playdates and pander to every whim of kids and husbands. It is not an easy job.

I dont smack and dont understand why people do

I don't think it needs to be a good thrashing to break their spirit.Imagine if the person you love and trust most in the world lifts their hand to you that would be enough.I can't believe this thread tbh and am amazed that so many seem to think its ok and although all your excuses sound quite convincing they are just that-excuses and justification for your own short fuse.Walk away from them if you are feeling wound up and think you might lash out and if you actively pre plan smacking then you need to take a good look at yourself

The word "violence" is a very emotive word. It means "extreme force" and im sure that none of the people on the site would advocate using violence on a child.

If somebody who was the size of me from my DSs pov smacked me, I think I'd think it was violent.

Moosh ? I didn?t say getting hit makes you hit others. I said violence teaches violence. How the hitted processes that learning is individual. You didn?t learn to hit, you say, but you also admit hitting your own children, though not v often. Well done for that. maybe what you learned was that being hit wasn?t very nice. Don?t know you so cant speculate.

Im sorry, WHY does being hit make a 2 year old aware that they have been in danger??

Being hit makes a 2 year old:
Cry
Pissed off
Confused
Upset
Resentful
Trust the hitter less

Not the best result IMO

CarlaJo ? you have my utmost respect and admiration.

We all get stressed. We all get angry. We are also all adults and so must take responsibility for our actions. I can admit I need help with learning some other tactics for dealing with ?naughty? behaviour than the ones I was brought up with, why is it so hard for some of you??

CarlaJo - your post made me feel really sad. But if this is true 'It was the fear of her anger that came with it' - surely it's not the smacking that's at issue? How can you not be angry - all you can do is not show it perhaps but IME children pick up on their parents' emotions very easily. So if the offence is simply being angry I genuinely don't know what I can do. My kids try the patience of a saint sometimes (don't they all) and I have a very stressful life. Feeling anger is something that just happens. I've always thought that they problem was acting on it inappropriately

a primary carer - mother in most cases - is a young childs sole source of information about the world. they are supposed to pass on their knowledge and protect them from harm.
dont you remember being so young you thought your parents knew everything? dont you remember having them so high on a pedestal that they could do no wrong in your eyes? and how indredibly awful it felt when they were angry/dispointed with you?
maybe 'reasoning' doent get instant 'stand-to-attention' results, but it all goes in.

fgs, cant you imagine being helpless in the world and your one protector lashes out at you when theyre angry?