Part 6: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Sorry, lost the end of the thread there!

Thread 5

I'm really hoping that the terrible events of last month will serve as a turning point in world opinion and ultimately lead to the change in mindset that Desmond Tutu refers to in that Haaretz article. I loved the way he urged Israelis to liberate themselves by liberating the Palestinians.

During the apartheid years I was often – constantly really – accused of being a bleeding heart liberal or a communist – depending on who I was talking to. I still maintain that my motivation was in fact largely self-interest. I felt that the best way of ensuring my own future was by the liberation of my fellow South Africans which in turn would lead to my own liberation and security.

I don’t seriously expect anyone on here to have any sympathy for white South Africans under apartheid or Israelis in the past month – the oppression, death and destruction has been too terrible. However I can tell you that in my personal experience, being the oppressor is not all it’s cracked up to be.

As just one example (and I have many!) when friends of mine were conscripted, they discovered that rather than searching out terrorists in the townships (as we were told), they were generally required to “show strength” ie terrorise their countrymen into shutting up and putting up with apartheid. I personally saw the major psychological effects of this. One friend of mine came back on his first army pass only speaking Afrikaans in a weird sort of robotic way. (He was previously very definitely English speaking.) Another one told me about the brutality he’d witnessed and was horrified but felt utterly helpless. Pretty much every single conscript I personally knew showed signs of clinical depression or other psychological problems. The community we lived in was pretty liberal and so the army split up and dispersed conscripts from our area to make sure they were placed within a larger more right wing group so that speaking out was very difficult – you would be the only one in your platoon complaining in effect. My childhood friends were just nice normal guys – almost all left the country soon after their national service and studies.

If you read the Breaking the Silence IDF stories, you will see a very similar pattern to what I describe - ordinary people disgusted at the role forced upon them.

It annoys me that Israelis are being told that this “war” ie the oppression is the only option they have available to them if they want to survive.

This whole war was so unnecessary and I don’t believe for a minute it was about ensuring Israeli safety. I believe it was about systematically beating back any resistance to the unfair status quo.

The truth is that a state which fails to respect the human rights of one group doesn’t really respect anyone’s human rights, including the group it is telling everyone it is out to protect.

As to why the west is turning a blind eye, Jeff Halper's article looks precisely at that and quite honestly made my blood run cold. While I know what alaswad means about the clarity of the slogan we are all Palestinian, I do feel it won't be long before it makes unequivocal sense. Ferguson but for the grace etc.. www.CounterPunch.org/2014/08/18/globalizing-gaza/. Bloody scary.

I probably even sound like a palestinian asking as i am now, what's the point of the 'peace' talks if all this backroom shuffling is constantly going on. Talking of hidden agendas, looks like the gas issue just cant be ignored. I guess it's part of the 'why' to set against the 'how' of "israel's lead in developing customary law": www.truth-out.org/news/item/25651/is-the-control-of-gazas-offshore-gas-reserves-a-factor-in-israeli-military-oparations

Shit, shit, powerless and shit. Great feeling to start another day. Poor palestinians counting down another 24 hours till the next outrage is revealed. Even this drip drip drip of terror is cruel. Phew you can breathe now, but don't think about anything more than finding something to eat and drink, or how much medicine you've got for your injured family members.

I'm so angry, and im sorry for taking it out on you guys, but no one else wants to listen!

Interesting article QnBoudi - grassroots people like Dr Halper are my hope for the future. The leaders are all shmucks.

Wordsmith, you're right, and a very interesting and humane observation it is. As individuals, it's virtually impossible for most to resist either peer pressure or to overcome the fear/respect for 'authority' figures. It'way too easy for us to become disoriented and ignore our own moral compasses. We should put the Milgram experiment on the curriculum and teach kids to trust their own instincts to resist ridiculous 'orders' from people who ought to be protecting the public instead of themselves. Standing out should be rewarded, despite the endless proof that its a folly. Mindset shift indeed. Monster job, but the alternative is more monstrous.

don't apologise - it's what we're mainly here for i think (other than dealing with the same red herrings on a cycle). personally i find it reassuring to know i'm not the only one seeing all this and feeling this and 'getting' what it means for all of us.

feels like much of humanity is sleepwalking into a waking nightmare.

quote from that article that sums up what i've been trying to say for however many bloody threads it is now: It is an effort not only to get Israel off the hook for massive violations of human rights and international law, but to help other governments overcome similar constraints when they embark as well on “asymmetrical warfare,” “counterinsurgency” and “counter-terrorism” against peoples resisting domination. It is a campaign that Israel calls “lawfare” and had better be taken seriously by us all.

wake the fuck up people. global recession, global 'austerity', global decisions to let the poor sink, diminishing natural resources with soaring prices = global need to give the 'haves' a hell of a lot more power to deal with the masses.

we bloody well are all palestinians in the eyes of the elites. dispensable, a population problem, breeding too much, sucking up or sitting on resources they'd like for themselves etc etc. and if ever it reaches the point where we need to resist we too will be classified as snakes and terrorists and human shields and be acceptable targets.

QnBoudi It stands to reason that most Israelis would not want a one state solution as Jewish Israelis could quickly become an ethnic minority, which means the whole point of Israel as a Jewish homeland with self-determination is gone. As for the palestinians, it is not so clear, but they seem to favour a maximalist position, i.e. the whole region reclaimed, rather than living side by side or in two separate states.

You can see a gallup poll of both Israelis and Palestinians here: and even more recent poll of Palestinan opinion here which says that a one state solution where "Arabs and Jews will have equal rights in one country, from the river to the sea" is supported by only 11% in the west bank and 8% in Gaza. A larger number support two-state, but the majority of Palestinians support neither two or one state solution, but to reclaim the whole of historic Palestine for Palestinians.

I think it is generally agreed that Israel will never give the land back, and will never give non-Jews full citizenship rights, and will never stop building illegal settlements on the occupied territories until they have got all of it.

Is there anything constructive they actually do feel able to do?

Just for the record I am neither a racist or an Islamophobe. However I do not agree that Israel is an apartheid and evil state where Jews are the only welcome citizens. Having lived in and visited Israel quite the opposite is true.

Written by Sir Jeremy Lever, All Souls College, Oxford

"It has not been generally noted, but Hamas’s strategy has been very successful and Israel is playing into its hands. The rockets Hamas fires into Israel cause Israel little loss beyond the cost of intercepting those that would cause deaths or damage to property. Hamas also knows that the rain of rockets obliges the Israelis to try to take out the launching sites. The density of population in Gaza ensures that Israeli retaliation wreaks mayhem in the civilian population. So Hamas’s strategy successfully inflames and reinforces the hatred of Israel by the inhabitants of Gaza, and stirs up anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic feeling elsewhere.

I do not claim to know what policy a wiser government of Israel would pursue against an organisation that is overtly dedicated to the destruction of the State of Israel, but the consequences of the present policy need to be more considered by all concerned."

"Having lived in and visited Israel"

I wonder if Londongirl has ever lived as an Arab in Israel, Gaza or the Occupied Territories.

I think not.

presumably she must be able to at least conceive that her status as a western long term visitor might have been just a teensy bit different to being an arab in a country where popular chants on marches are, 'death to all arabs' and you can be evicted from your home of decades at 3am to make way for brand new jewish immigrants though? maybe? or maybe not

it's that old apples and pears business.

The Palestinians in deciding in 2006 to elect Hamas to speak and act for them CLEARLY made a mistake.

Once Hams took power, conditions for the Palestinians got worse, as $$$$$hundred of millions were spent on the Hamas war effort rather than prosperity/infrastructure within, which confirmed that the 2006 decision by Israel to try and halt the inflow of weapons in the Gaza and elsewhere via a blockade, WAS CORRECT for their citizens, and arguably the Palestinians stuck in a strip of land called Gaza

Before Hamas a Fatah led Palestinian Authority was meant to keep the militant party’s with Gaza and the West Bank in their box, and they failed, and Hamas then OVER RAN their Gaza stronghold by force, killing Fatah Party members.

While Islamic Jihadists Hamas terrorists still speaks for the Palestinians that both elected them and are knowingly put in danger by their own administration after every rocket barrage, nothing will change.

‘The world’ does not recognise terrorists, so can only protest when the rockets/missiles fired at Israel that guarantees the retaliation, causes too many casualties in Hamas’s perpetual war.

Get rid of Hamas, then expect Israel and the rest of the world to get behind the Palestinian people who democratically made things worse for themselves, by voting for a Hamas they knew were far more radical than Fatah.

The Sunni terrorists still known as Hamas will soon return from Egypt virtually empty handed, as if the governments of the west won’t deal with terrorists, why should those on their border under attack from them do so.

Then Hamas has a choice, sent rockets/receive casualties, or look to change their Charter and demilitarise as a START to rebuilding trust for negotiations to help those that elected them.

i didn't vote for the tories - should i be blown to smitherines for their mistakes?

Isitmebut, I'm glad you mentioned Israel's blockade.

Can you tell me please why the Israeli blockade prevents shoes being imported into Gaza? Or jam? Or chocolate?

Does Israel consider them to be weapons of war?

I went to Israel in 1993 and stayed in a Palestinian christian hotel I think in Bethlehem. people were lovely and it was a beautiful spiritual country.

Hamas are unreasonable and want to Islamise everywhere like we were in the middle ages, i don't think they care about their citizens and don't want democracy or peace.

PigletJohn ...... are you telling me that every container/crate heading for Gaza is physically searched by the Israelis and they are sending those goods back?

Are you seriously telling me that whether the 1,200 supply tunnels to Egypt had been closed or not, Hamas would never use the sea or airport they are currently requesting to re arm themselves against Israel?

TheHoneyBadger .... your talking rollocks, sharpen up your Gaza point please..

isitmebut

I see you take care to avoid answering my question.

I am glad the Israeli apologists are posting their disgusting justifications for the world to see.

isitme how vile can you get trying to justify the blockade that has caused nothing but misery and suffering for the Palestinians.

Would you be saying the same had you been put into that ghetto and told your calorie restriction and caging is a correct decision for you? would you be saying if your child was bombed and you had to beg israel to have mercy on your child to hear singing of 'there's no school tomorrow, there's no children left in Gaza'?

Israel and UK/US bear full responsibility for the creation of Hamas.

There is always an excuse with the Israel isnt there? israel has a choice. Either continue its apartheid state expansion and expect resistance, or stop the oppression and treat Palestinians like humans.

Also, I have noticed the words 'sunni Hamas' 'islamic jihadist hamas terrorist' creeping in many israeli apologist posts. Would it be acceptable to say 'jewish netanyahu' or 'jew netanyahu Israeli terrorist'? Is Islamophobia more acceptable than anti-semitism?

While netanyahu speaks for the israelis that both elected his party and are knowingly put in danger by their own administration after every crime against humanity, nothing will change. They can chant 'death to Arabs' all they like, they will not drop dead on your say so. They can resort to bombing every baby in Gaza, the Palestinians will continue to resist.

Yurapita just wondered what you thought about what was going on in Iraq at the moment in regard to the christians and Yezedi tribe.

Yruapita ……….. please read the following and tell me that I’m wrong re Hamas

The Sunni ISIS is clearly looking to form a Sunni caliphate within mainly Sunni lands.

The Sunni Hamas is clearly looking to claim land they last owned; arguably the Jews were on before and have a better claim to.

Who am I to say if an Iraq government’s non inclusive policies or Israel pre the 2006 election of Hamas was doing enough to compromise with Palestinians, even after forcibly removing their own settlers from Gaza in 2003.

MY POINT is that whether in Northern Iraq, or the land currently called Israel, both sets of Islamic Jihadi terrorists are the same to those they oppose. When ISIS meets an infidel or Hamas is inside Israel, they show those they are opposed to NO MERCY and will kill on sight, happy as children in a sweet shop.

It matters not if ISIS cuts off heads, and Hamas don’t, the RESULTING loss of life is the same.

Hamas are not tunnelling into Israel to go on their holidays for fuck sake, so WHAT makes their killing of every innocent they find more acceptable to Hamas apologists, than those of ISIS???????

So why should Israel negotiate with a Hamas, even if democratically elected by a Palestine with around 44% of a population is under 15-years old, the grown ups clearly don’t give a care for.

What this Israel/Palestine really needs, is some posts to divert us away from the Israel/Palestine subject.

To return to the subject, do any of the pro-Israel people disagree that Israel will never give the land back, and will never give non-Jews full citizenship rights, and will never stop building illegal settlements on the occupied territories until they have got all of it?

PigletJohn ..... Re the Israeli blockade, where it is entirely possible that the blockade in not allowing in such goods you mentioned is designed to to put a squeeze on the Palestinian's who elected Hamas, is is one thing if having searched crates they still sent them back - or if it's a more blanket blockade where they neither have the manpower, or can be arsed, to search each and every crate.

The blockade came in after Hamas came to power, the writing was on the wall Israel would be more in danger from a Hamas were elevated from a Jihadist splinter group to government, and NO ONE can say Israel were wrong on that assumption, whether missiles or missile factory parts come in by tunnel or sea.

does " entirely possible " mean "yes it does?
Or are you in some doubt?
If so, please feel free to check.

Your rambling about the possibility that some goods might be smuggled in makes no sense.