Part 6: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Sorry, lost the end of the thread there!

Thread 5

Sigh.

Israel is a terrorist state.

Why is Egypt's border to Gaza closed?

Sigh. And?

Sorry bout my earlier post. Sarcasm really doesn't work online. I honestly wasn't trying to make real analogies, just turn the tables, because i get quite frustrated when i think people are saying we need to understand that historical events explain the actions being taken now. We're talking about a stupendously supported (politically, financially, and so also technologically) military power that has just stamped all over the lives of millions (destroy any homes, infrastructure etc). I just cannot find it in myself to accept that history - horrendous as it was - or the wider context (of other arab states) justifies any of it.

Miko Peled in his talk clarified for me where my frustration comes from: it's the conflation of different issues. His response to accusations of antisemitism is, OK well that may be so, but now please tell me why you think it's OK to deprive a Palestinian child of water. We need to deal with these things separately. Many Jews clearly feel persecuted, which is self-evidently no way to live. But that needs to be dealt with separately: bombing a bunch of civilians including hundreds of kids can't be the solution.

There's been plenty of discussion on this thread about deflection, distraction, ulterior motives, brainwashing/propaganda etc. It seems to me that the state of Israel is purposely keeping its people in a state of fear (Miko Peled states this was so even during the 67 war, and is still the case with the red warning signs) and this may actually account for the high degree of support at home. However, I just don't buy that the same fears are in the minds of the those with their fingers on the buttons. Leaders around the world are giving Israel carte blanche to violate international law. The only thing for Israel's leaders to be afraid of now, surely, is losing that inexplicable power.

Paradoxically, of course, the whole sad and sorry episode has generated a new wave of antisemitism to exacerbate matters.

Anyhoo, no more sarcasm from me. And I'll just have to count to 10 next time I feel we're being derailed by the fear thing being a legitimate reason to commit humanitarian crimes.

Oops 1st line should say 'justify the actions being taken now'. Think I'm too tired to say what I mean! Night one and all...

you can't justify it and i can't believe we're still having these conversations over and over again. it'll be time for 'what about syria' in a minute seeing as we're back on the pretend it's anti-semitism turn of the wheel already and we've had 'why don't egypt open their borders' again. is it necessary to answer all the same questions over and over or would it be ok to say rtft and you'll find that one answered over and over by all the people you're asking it to again and again.

Yes qunboudi

A very sad and alarming article in the guardian today about the spinelessness and impotence of the ICC under US, UK, French and Israeli pressure.

Egypt closed it's Borders because it is trying to suppress the muslim brotherhood and it has allied itself with Israel to ensure sisi can remain 8 power. It's a lot more complicated than this but that's the basic jist.

I'm really hoping the talks profess today. Israel.is throwing crumbs at palestine and it's not acceptable. Imagine the blacks in America begging for freedom, or those in South Africa wanting their children to go goto school. How on earth can israel refuse proper fishing rights to people over their own waters? Freedom.from occupation? Freedom of movement? Unrestricted calories?

Suggesting that the palestinians quietly move along to the neatest muslim country is ignorant, racist and arrogant.

More horror stories are emerging about the genocide. Mosque leaders humiliated by being made yo strip naked in front of families, houses desecrated with faeces, snipers shooting randomly at will. The israeli army has exposed itself as the most cruel immoral army with scant regard for humanitarian or international law.

They have indeed, but where is the justice when they can scare off the ICC?

even the question is bizarre - why doesn't a neighbour open their borders to 1.8million refugees rather than them be treated as human beings in their own land? 1.8 million refugees should be taken in rather than them just being given their land and their resources and not being blockaded into a prison camp? it kind of beggars belief.

and it IS racist yet again - well they're arabs aren't they? they're all the same? why don't they look after 'their own'? these are human beings and separate nations with their own national concerns, economies, political systems, populations, cultures etc etc etc - they're not some mass of interchangable sameness. you're basically saying why don't those arabs fuck off and live with their own kind - it's incredible that you have the gall to say it.

It's incredible to read posts where posters are asking the question honey. These are educated informed (?) Women who have access to all the information and media reports available.

Is Egypt's border closed for the same reason Israel's is closed?

Not so that all these Arabs can live together.

Who said that?

Somewhere safe, do you have links to the stories emerging of mosque leaders being smeared with faeces etc?

interesting discussion on 94.9 radio London. I think we are not getting a balanced view in the media.

It sounds very balanced to me on Vanessa's show. It's about an increase in anti Semitic attacks in London.

Why do you all assume that people who question and query are all pro Israeli government actions?

It's interesting

I certainly would question anything Hamas comes out with as well.

Winky apologies I should post links. There have already been links posted relating to the defecation of houses.

But please read my post properly Winky, I referred to mosque leaders being humiliated and forced to strip and houses being defecated.

I doubt Egypt borders are closed for the same reason as Israel. Egypt is not trying to enforce apartheid and a siege on an indigenous population on their own land. There was lots of discussion about Egypt and it's borders on an earlier thread. Besides, why do supporters of the regime keep mentioning Egypt and it's Borders? These wouldn't even be relevant if Israel want imposing a crippling siege on the palestinians. Let's deal with Israel and it's brutality first.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-a-rising-demand-for-the-sperm-of-idf-soldiers-and-a-fun-questionnaire-reveal-about-israel-9674307.html

Brilliant article by the wonderful ilan Pappé. 8 keep reading reports and articles which at first sight seem to be some bizarre parody or spoof. But they're very real and just unbelievable to read. This article talks about how totalitarian israel is vetoing, how it years for a supreme pure race (the irony, the parallels! ) and how the recent genocide was a big adventure for many Israelis. We mustn't forget the recent peace marches in tel aviv and must have faith that one day Israelis will speak out more.

Pappé also discusses how israeli youth are brainwashed to hate and be militarised and the impact of this on peace. This is something we've also discussed on here.

Apologies for my phone substituting the number 8 I stead of the word I.

And the unacceptable spelling mistakes! Becoming not vetoing. Instead not I stead.

I give up. Hopefully I'm making some sort of sense.

Hold on hold on.

That article. It says there is a rising demand for sperm donors from the IDF elite soldiers therefore ensuring some sort of genetic purity in the minds of infertile Israeli couples.

How does that ensure any kind of purity in particular as opposed to the demand for sperm donations from Israeli doctors or engineers?

And there is an Israeli Jewish "obsession with human engineering"?
Evidence for this massive claim?

Because a few infertile couples have requested sperm from soldiers? As opposed to sperm from architects? I mean how many infertile people are there in Israel? The author makes it sound like there are so many (his link states 30 a month) and with the DNA of these soldiers, well, they are all apparently trying to create a Jewish master race.

That bit is utter crap because people going to sperm banks often specify occupation, colour of skin, eyes etc. and it is daft to hear of a few asking for soldiers sperm because of the conflict but come on. What a dumb extrapolation to make that it reflects the whole of Jewish society. 30 women a month? Sure.

And I can assure you Israeli people do not consider the rockets fired by Hamas as "fire crackers". The Israelis get into bunkers whenever necessary.

As for the questionnaire well, it seems service men were not approving of it.

There's an awful lot of bull out there and this article is part of it.

Please be a little more discerning.

winky I meant on Vanessa's show we were getting an insight into how things are in Gaza/Israel but not on the news.

I missed Vanessa's show. What did she say regarding Israel/Gaza?

I didn't hear Vanessa's show, but I will try and listen later (it's available online here) - on her Twitter feed it she was asking people to call about Sainsbury's removing Kosher food.