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Part 6: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

985 replies

AndHarry · 15/08/2014 17:12

Sorry, lost the end of the thread there!

Thread 5

OP posts:
QnBoudi · 22/09/2014 07:38

And when deflection fails, resort to personal attack. Predictable, did you say?

TheHoneyBadger · 22/09/2014 08:07

they deflect, people respond to the deflection and take the trouble to answer it and then the deflectors NEVER respond to the responses but resort to personal attacks or a brand new deflection. it's so circular.

alemci · 22/09/2014 08:11

yawn

sergeantmajor · 22/09/2014 10:52

Gazans speak out against Hamas
www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4706/gazan-hamas-war-crimes

As you may not click the link, here are some of the opening quotes:

"Hamas wanted us butchered so it could win the media war against Israel showing our dead children on TV and then get money from Qatar." — T., former Hamas Ministry officer.

"Hamas imposed a curfew: anyone walking out in the street was shot. That way people had to stay in their homes, even if they were about to get bombed. Hamas held the whole Gazan population as a human shield." — K., graduate student

"The Israeli army allows supplies to come in and Hamas steals them. It seems even the Israelis care for us more than Hamas." — E., first-aid volunteer.

"We are under Hamas occupation, and if you ask most of us, we would rather be under Israeli occupation… We miss the days when we were able to work inside Israel and make good money. We miss the security and calm Israel provided when it was here." — S., graduate of an American university, former Hamas sympathizer.

But do click the link and read it in full, there is much more, including about Gazans feelings towards Israel.

Ketchuphidestheburntbits · 22/09/2014 11:49

London girl and Alemci, you are absolutely right but it is a waste of time to defend Israel on this thread and I admire you for trying.

I am proud to say that I support Israel and expect to be flamed for saying so. Several members of my family have just emigrated to Israel to escape antisemitism after suffering attacks of various kinds. I am so grateful that there is a Jewish state for them to live in.

A Shana Tovah (Happy New Year) to anyone Jewish reading this Smile

PigletJohn · 22/09/2014 12:07

ketchup, you are welcome to defend Israel, though your arguments are liable to be examined and tested, and to meet disagreement.

Look back to my earlier posts about racist or fascist behaviour. Is it your view that this behaviour is not racist or fascist when it is carried out by Israel?

alemci · 22/09/2014 14:10

happy new year and bless youSmile

justasecond · 22/09/2014 14:43

Israel's actions are indefensible and it is sad to see people like Londongirl etc so blinkered and brainwashed that they cannot see injustice staring them in the face. BTW your post with the map is plain stupid when all else fails conflate all muslims with isis eh?

Isitmebut · 22/09/2014 15:02

PigletJohn ..... no comment then on those in Gaza finally speaking out (in the link by the sergeantmajor above) to what I was saying all along, there is little different from the Sunni Islamic Jihadist Hamas and the Islamic Jihadist ISIS/ISIL/IS (whatever) - other than Hamas is more specific both who they want to wipe off the face of this earth, and sacrifice doing it?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2143340-Palestine-Israel

Posts proving Hamas 'mugged' many people across the world into believing there was no intent/realisation that rocket attacks would cause casualties at home, says what?

How many more thousands of post are you and others with an agenda going to waste supporting Hamas, when the only way there can START to be a solution is after the Palestinians themselves realized they elected life is cheap monsters, and democratically or otherwise, sandal them out of power.

A possible repeat of the election of Hamas type Jihadists will no doubt make those in Southern Israel very wary of deals in the future, but (relative) peace has to be started somewhere - and without a Hamas government/administration, the Palestinians themselves should feel safer in their homes.

P.S. The east-west military coalition will soon confront the Sunni Islamic Jihadists known as IS and it could last years.

Trying to remind the west with thousands of posts of propagandas supporting an Islamic Jihadist known as Hamas, knowingly causing casualties in Gaza, may no longer be GOOD propaganda – you may need to consult someone for advice, or rely on your own common sense. IMO.

PigletJohn · 22/09/2014 15:41

isitme

you foolishly or maliciously assert that my criticism for the inhumane actions of the state of Israel is based on support for some local group.

Are you truly unable to comprehend that I am opposed to the slaughter and maiming of thousands, and to the stealing of homes and land from the powerless?

Isitmebut · 22/09/2014 17:33

.....and back full circle to those who knowingly knew what Hamas's M.O. was, knowing elected them after Israel moved out all Israeli settlers in Gaza by force, and now literally know their lives were being used by those they elected.

Everyone will be opposed to the slaughter of civilians, it appear the tough part is knowing when an elected Palestinian government, is more dangerous than the Israelis.

sergeantmajor · 22/09/2014 18:56

PigletJohn - I have read many of your posts. And actually, yes, I do think that you are sincere in your opposition to the suffering of the Palestinians. Fwiw. Otherwise I wouldn't bother to engage.

But I have a very different perspective on the conflict than you, and others on this thread who seem to share your views (and also your sincerity). I am engaging here to put the other perspective, to counter gross inaccuracies, to counter some really twisted distortions and outright shameful lies.

I don't expect to persuade any of you. You seem pretty trenchant. But I do invite you to see it from the Israeli viewpoint. Just occasionally. And to consider your sources critically, not just swallowing every vile defamation on the web.

Because the Palestinian and Israeli negotiators, edging towards peace, have to see it from each other's point of view. They have to consider what the other side will realistically concede. They can't adopt the armchair absolutism exhibited here.

QnBoudi · 22/09/2014 23:58

OK. I like Sargent's approach. i really do. Here is one instance where i think there is a genuine attempt to exchange opinion.

But you need to make your case more clearly, sergeant. I actually think YOU are guilty of gross inaccuracies, twisted distortions and shameful lies. Here's why. What I got from you is the following.

You have a clear sense that Israel is really facing an existential threat and you hold an unequivocal belief that everyone is determined to annihilate israel. E.g. you stated that palestinians, before and after the formation of hamas have been singularly focused on wiping out Israel and you claimed that pro Palestinians on this thread want Israel to 'cease to exist'.
You fiercely believe that lifting the blockade on Gaza would only lead to Israel's destruction through the rearming of hamas.
You adhere to the narrative that Israel had to defend itself against a significant arab coalition threat in 67.
You believe that people have blamed the Jews for their own persecution over the last 2000 years.
You stated that if Palestinians were given the right to return, they would rapidly become the ruling majority, israel would be 'eliminated' and Jews become the 'persecuted minority'. Again.
You clearly believe that Israel is truly a democratic, tolerant society, where all faiths, races and ethnic or other minorities have equal rights, both under the law and in practice.
All these beliefs seem to justify the mass and indiscriminate murder of hundreds of women, children, elderly and men of a certain age. And for razing their property. And destroying their infrastructure. And for imposing a brutal blockade which strangles their economy and for maintaining inhumane military control over a captive population etc etc. I don't think you have disputed any of these actions as facts. But you have argued that they are necessary for the preservation of a 'safe' place for Jews.

I hope I haven't misrepresented you, though you may feel some of the wording is loaded.

Your posts have generated considerable discussion on several topics. However I feel that pro Palestinian posters respond to issues raised by pro Israeli proponents with evidence and substantiated arguments whilst the reverse is not the case, even for sargeantm. Here are some examples.

SM, you said you feel pro Palestinian posters on this thread are determined to annihilate Israel. But you finally acknowledged that no one had actually said such a thing - you qualified this as being 'not in so many words' though you 'believed' it to be the case.

You refused to respond to the suggestion that there is an alternative view (ie that expressed very forcefully by miko peled) to your own (unquestioningly following the party line) understanding of a savage all-powerful Arab coalition determined to crush Israel (both now and historically). Nor have you offered a rationale for the hamas stance to the Israeli state. i can only think of some kind of racist explanation for such a view, so would appreciate an insight into your thinking on this.

You've dismissed evidence that anti Semitism is less pervasive than anti Arab racism, on the grounds that it is based on a 'meaningless' comparison, seemingly because one set of data was about a smaller minority (Jews) in a 'more accepting' country (USA). Surely that would make the racism an even more extreme phenomenon??

You've utterly failed to counter reams of very strong evidence for widespread racism and unequal treatment of Arab Israelis and other minority groups by large numbers of israelis, including many in positions of authority.

In supporting your views, you've dismissed evidence by claiming it is simply representative of only a very small extremist minority (akin to a BNP view) or by making sweeping statements about source credibility - but without ever explaining specifically which sources are unreliable and exactly why they are not to be believed.

The reason the pro Palestinian contingent is not listening to your arguments (and this applies to londongirl, alemci et al) is because your claims are ludicrous and totally unsubstantiated. As mothers, would any of you use your children as human shields? If not, why on earth would a palestinian? The official Israeli line is so lacking in substance its incredible that anyone believes any of it. Give us some facts and logic that we engage with. No more personal, subjective opinions based on flawed reasoning. No more 'contrasts' with other - irrelevant - contexts. Please.

Bambambini · 23/09/2014 09:05

If you really want people to take you up on your boycott and discuss this issue why are you hiding it in this topic. Post over on AIBU or chat where you will get more traffic and more people to engage. It's just the same few folk here saying the same stuff. Get your message out over on the busier more popular boards.

TheHoneyBadger · 23/09/2014 10:06

it isn't hidden it's placed where people who are actually interested in current affairs and likely to follow them actually read and post. that isn't hiding something.

this isn't a aibu thread or a 'chat' topic but a serious topic about a current issue that is in the news.

if you want a thread in chat or aibu go ahead and do it.

Yruapita · 23/09/2014 10:15

75 nurseries and daycare centres were damaged in tge gaza war. A 70 year old palestinian fisherman has been shot on tge beach by israeli soldiers. 7500 new settlers have moved to the West Bank in the last six months. This is pretty much every day news of what Israel does to the Palestinians.

Yruapita · 23/09/2014 10:27

Bambam, you found this thread didn't you. Do you think other mumsnetters are incapable of finding this thread. This thread isnt here for popularity contest, it is here to highlight the very real suffering of the palestinians and to challenge those who hold the belief that Israel is seeking peace, justice and equality.

maami · 23/09/2014 12:08

Ofcourse this is onesided..there are no two sides to injustice; one is the criminal the other a victim. You can pick which side you wish to..but that will reflect on you as a person. Calling both sides guilty is not an option im afraid.

Bambambini · 23/09/2014 14:29

Yes it is - you are so blind to your arrogance that yours is the only possible viewpoint that you have chased off anyone who actually looks in here to have a proper discussion. It's not by chance that it's only the few same posters who post here and most folk give it a body swerve. Probably pop in for a quick look and then back out slowly while they can.

Yruapita · 23/09/2014 15:35

So now protesting against injustice, land grab and slaughter of Palestinians and their children is deemed arrogance. Nuttyyahu (and his father) would be so proud of you bambam.

It doesnt matter if israel apologists dont like this thread, the world can see the injustice that the Palestinians suffer on a daily basis due to Israeli oppression.

Boycott Israel all the way!

Bambambini · 23/09/2014 15:51

Where are all your supporters? No one comes near this thread, wonder why. Just the same few posters over and over again.

maami · 23/09/2014 16:14

How do you know they dont read this thread..? Did u do a monkey survey?

Mostly thos who disagree tend to respond

QnBoudi · 23/09/2014 19:03

Yitzhak Rabin, 1968: " I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The 2 divisions he sent into the Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against us. He knew it and we knew it."

Menachem Begin: "Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."

Plus ca change???

imeu.org/article/self-defense-or-provocation-israels-history-of-breaking-ceasefires

justasecond · 23/09/2014 21:50

I don't see many pro Israel supporters here either unless you are counting the spate of new mumsnetters we had a few threads ago who joined just to spread Israeli state endorsed propaganda.
I understand that many jewish people have an emotional bond with Israel and what it represents to them and they feel hurt when they see so much criticism about it but I cannot see how that would prevent any right minded person from seeing what the Israeli goverment is doing to the Palestinians today and for the past 66 years is wrong and an affront to jewish values.