Part 6: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Sorry, lost the end of the thread there!

Thread 5

Er this is part 6 of one long running thread. You happily referred to events in part 5, (a previous thread) yet I am not supposed to respond?
Uh huh. I get it.

Hamas came about in 1987... What was israels excuse before that... PLO?

Hamas was infact brought to power by israel as an counterweight to the PLO:

m.europe.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847?mobile=y
January 24, 2009 12:01 AM

How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas
By ANDREW HIGGINS
Moshav Tekuma, Israel

"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.
Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with "Yassins," primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric.'

Hows that for fuckin irony!

All this anti semite calling is a cop out.. And typical deflection. When its the most prominent and bocal ritics of israels policy are jews and isrealis themselves. Chomsky finklestien gideon levy decendent os holocause survivers..i have the same views as them. The real anti-semites are thos who minimise israels deliberate policy of mass muder and land theft against palestinian semites and try and equalise the two as if both are oppressers.

Again; anyone with GENUINE sympathy for the holocaust victims would be fully supporting yhe palestinians today.. As they would too would themselves.

They certainly wouldnt be making shabby excuses of...'oh no but theyre both at fault.'... Yeah about as much as a rape victim is at fault for being raped! How many of you would fault her/him for self defense..? Neither i presume..so why would you do so here?

Ruskin

I think you are mistaken in claiming that the Kuwaut thread or the Egypt thread or the Syria thread has been closed. By all means start new ones on those topics if you wish.

This is the Israel/Palestine thread.

Are you denying that Hamas are brutal killers who murder their own as happily as they use human shields?

They are israels creation.. So wouldnt expect any better. That said.. But one thing is clear..they are definitely 'flower fairies' as compared to israels brutality.

Again; anyone with GENUINE sympathy for the holocaust victims would be fully supporting yhe palestinians today.. As they would too would themselves."

Ha, ha. Your arrogance is almost admirable. Why don't you all just set yourself up as a panel (X factor style)and have everyone run by you with their credentials, thoughts and beliefs so you can label everyone in accordance to your superior moral compass. You can all vote and box everyone as to their level of evilness.

'Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate us. We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children.'

This is the view that the majority of them ascribe to. Certainly the apologists on this site have demonstrated this deep seated racist view, some ad verbatim. They also cry out anti-semitism at criticism of racism in Israel too.

The Israeli politicians and prime ministers have forever made racist remarks as above. There was the little snakes comment referring to Palestinian children by a member of knesset, then there was a prime minister who called the Palestinians "Two-legged vermin". Another deputy prime minister also used words like "We will keep them on their knees. We will follow them all over the world and kill them". They definitely have been carrying out these actions too whilst gleefully aligning themselves with the West!

You have those posters who sit there arguing that there is nothing to take or return to the Palestinians as their state never existed to begin with. Such outdated colonialist and dehumanising racist views which they actually think are enlightened, logical and acceptable.

Even a poster on this thread was laughing at the mother's misery on the rooftop of her house, whilst Israel mercilessly bombed her family. Of course there were the spectators on the hill tops watching the bombardments with popcorn.

If you look at the Israeli politicians comments, how are they different to what ISIS is doing?

Who in their right mind can watch Israel commit atrocity after atrocity and still look for 'balance' and attempt to justify its barbarity. Would anyone in the right frame of mind attempt to justify ISIS? No, most would be disgusted. The tide is turning now. The world is equally disgusted at those who attempt to justify Israel's crimes.Those who keep looking for 'balance'. There is no balance! Israel commits one crime after another after another.

The world has now seen the real obstacle to world peace.

"But one thing is clear..they are definitely 'flower fairies' as compared to israels brutality."

And only because they don't have access to the arsenal and technology that Israel has. They are innocent little fairies indeed.

And no one here is laughing at the Palestinians , they are gobsmacked and laughing at you.

And if we're talking numbers of people killed, I'm curious where the long threads are on here about the hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians (including Palestinians, who are of course the only civilians that actually matter) killed in Syria? Given that it's the numbers that matter, then you really ought to be boycotting some of the Arab nations.

8 civilians killed by hamas and thousands killed or maimed deliberately by israel.. Its pretty clear who is the more powerful; dangerous; violent and out of control frankenstein thats need to be reigned in. This war is not over.. This is merely tea time... They will be back for more... And in the mean time the occupation and imprisonment of a whole semite race is ongoing.. As is the stealing of more land from the palestinians.

Final point: if you want to draw parallels with the syria scenario (that you obv oh care so much about) ...
Then note this:

If anyone was defending assads atrocities against his population; just as some folks here defending israels actions against the palestinians.. Then maybe you have a point.. But as far as i can see; nobody is jumping to assads defense or trying to minimise his atrocities;, noone is trying to blame the protesters for trying to stand up to him... Nor is our gov arming assad heavily; as they are israel; nor are they trading with them ( as we are with israel) that we have a need to implement a boycott ( infact we already have sanctions) nor are we investing in them...and nor is our msm media so biased in favour of assad that the public are getting fed lies ( as they are with israel)... you get the picture...we are not part of the problem in syria ( aside from inadvertently arming extremists); as we are in israel. In syria we are supporting the right people.. In israel we are supporting the wrong side.

If you had any genuine moral pov it would be to demand our gov and citizens support the palestinians just
as we do the syrians iraqi refugees..and dissociate rebuke and sanction thier oppressers just as we did with assad saddam gaddafi etc.

But you dont have a genuine point aside from the typical childish deflection of 'oooh look over there... so that we can do what we want..' policy. And that frankly is never going to happen.

Bambam
"Everyone has their Jews. For the Israelis they are the Palestinians."
Primo Levi, writer and Auschwitz survivor:

Ha, ha. Your arrogance is almost admirable. Why don't you all just set yourself up as a panel (X factor style)and have everyone run by you with their credentials, thoughts and beliefs so you can label everyone in accordance to your superior moral compass. You can all vote and box everyone as to their level of evilness.

No need.. The posts in here are pretty self explanatory... The moral compass is generally standard across the world.. Perhaps it bypassed you.

Who in thier right mind would support an oppresser against the oppressed? Only the ill that would support assad; saddam hitler ;stalin..etc

Then people wonder why it was the allowed to happen. Because people remained indifferent or tried to justify and minimise the oppression.

Difference is Israel had much to fear from Palestinians. The Palestinians have attacked and killed Israelis and would wipe Israel off the map if they had they ability. They are not some passive, docile, innocent entity - stop infantilising them. Israel has not got to this stage just for the hell of it. A whole history of violence, hate, fear and mistrust from BOTH sides led to this situation - Israel is just the side with the upper hand. Do you really think the Palestinians would be any different if the situations were reversed.

Two sides went to war - one side got the upper hand. I don't blame the Palestinians for feeling as they do and the actions they have taken - I would probably feel and do the same. They have made unwise choices though in hindsight which has partially led to their sorry plight - to say otherwise is actually insulting to them. Now both sides have become more extreme and entrenched. I don't support this Israeli government and I'm frustrated and angry with Israelis for voting and going in this extreme direction and allowing the right to get such power and land grab.

The Palestinians do indeed deserve much better but just to scream Israel is Evil and Palestine is good and innocent is helping no one.

And only because they don't have access to the arsenal and technology that Israel has. They are innocent little fairies indeed.

Then they are israels' innocent fairies. But it goes to show they were never a threat in the first place.. Def not worth murdering women children and babies over.

We've had that discussion on here (as to why people don't talk a lot about anti-semitism) and concluded it's because the vast majority of us have never heard or seen it in our lifetimes ...

Your conclusion perhaps - certainly not everyone's. A very convenient one too, given that posters who claim never to have seen other forms of racism are instantly attacked for ignorance/wilful misunderstanding, told it's the result of their own privilege and all the rest

Isn't it usually said on MN that it's not acceptable to dictate how someone should feel, and if an action is perceived as racist then it is? Aren't claims that "so-and-so agrees with me" generally shot down if the narrative happens not to suit?

Not difficult either to imagine what the response would be if Maami's assertion that claims of anti-semitism are "a cop out - a deflection" was made about almost any other race

Sadly, I believe that JohnFarleysRuskin was correct: This is not the Israel Palestine thread, it is the Israel is scum thread

A whole history of violence, hate, fear and mistrust from BOTH sides led to this situation - Israel is just the side with the upper hand. Do you really think the Palestinians would be any different if the situations were reversed

Superb post, Bambini

Not difficult either to imagine what the response would be if Maami's assertion that claims of anti-semitism are "a cop out - a deflection" was made about almost any other race

Yes they are a easy cop-out.. And an attempt of deliberate deflection because

1. isreal is a not race
2. Both are the from the same race..supporting one over the other is mainly geo-pokitical...racism does not really come into it.

Sadly, I believe that JohnFarleysRuskin was correct: This is not the Israel Palestine thread, it is the Israel is scum thread

Well it may well be tha

Sadly, I believe that JohnFarleysRuskin was correct: This is not the Israel Palestine thread, it is the Israel is scum thread

Well it may well be... But thats no good reason to deflect the thread.. Is it?

Supporting one over the other is mainly geo-pokitical...racism does not really come into it

Excellent - then I'm sure we'll see no more posts about the racist behaviour of Israel towards the Palestinians ...

Interesting, too, to see a number of posters telling us all what the thread is really about, with the implication that certain subjects shouldn't be raised

Quite apart from the issue that none of us have been appointed "thread police" I can't help noticing that objections are hardly ever made if someone mentions their own "favoured group" on a thread about something else

Maybe, for some, "silencing techniques" are only to be deplored if used by someone else?

people were chanting 'death to all arabs' in israel whilst palestinians were being murdered in their thousands by israeli air, sea and land strikes. you get that that kind of takes precedence over the 'feelings' of some people. i experience discrimination due to my own 'categorisation' it is absolutely nothing compared to being bombed, slaughtered and barricaded though.

i worked with the jewish population here in my local town and they talked about the historical situation of discrimination but readily acknowledged it was no longer a problem. likewise i worked with the catholic leadership who explained that catholic schools were set up because it used to be the case that catholic children in state schools would be discriminated against. thankfully some forms of prejudice and discrimination have been all but eradicated or at least brought down to the personal opinions of a few people rather than a real, life altering experience for the victims of that discrimination.

that is not true of the situation for non whites and muslims but it is, here at least, true of the situation of jews and catholics and i'm very glad that it is the case.

i cannot comprehend flagrantly embarking on racist propaganda and ethnic cleansing and then claiming to be the victims of racism or discrimination. it is beyond insulting and ironic.

you can insult those of us who stand against it as much as you like and claim we're hysterical or crazy or extremist for thinking that civilians should not be murdered in their beds, their schools, their hospitals but any right minded person knows that in the face of the brutal murdering of innocents emotion is the right response. less than emotion is psychopathy.

also the 'oh my god anti semitism' in response to criticism of israel seems preposterous in the face of israeli politicians calling palestinians snakes and commending the killing of women so they couldn't breed more snakes and the streets full of youths shouting 'death to all arabs'. you just can't have it both ways. you don't get to get all high and mighty over tenuous accusations of anti semitism whilst remaining silent about flagrant, outright racism and propaganda against another ethnic group. you can do that of course but you will look like utter hypocrites and cynical opportunists to anyone with any common sense.

i'm actually wondering what brought on this new onslaught of smear and nastiness - maybe they're paying students again.

international law.

human rights.

morality.

it's that simple.

Is it not possible to get angry about more than one thing, HoneyBadger? You can be angry with the Israeli government for what it is doing to the Palestinians, about Israeli anti-Arab racism, and anti-Semitism, wherever it may occur, all at the same time. Anyone saying that anti-Semitism exists and that it concerns them isn't necessarily condoning Israel's actions or trying to deflect attention from them. I don't think a single poster, whatever their stance on this conflict, has agreed with the racist drivel that some Israeli politicians are spouting. I for one condemned Ayelet Shaked's comments back on Thread 1.

I've posted this before, which I saw on another thread - how to criticise Israel without being anti-Semitic.