Part 6: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Sorry, lost the end of the thread there!

Thread 5

Yruapita - that would be the kidnapping that Hamas have admitted to....

www.newsweek.com/senior-hamas-official-claims-organisation-responsible-kidnapping-israeli-teenagers-266070

at the use of the word 'hysterical'. yes, giving a fuck about the slaughter of innocent civilians requires misogynistic labeling to be attached to you. to respond emotionally to the slaughter of civilains, including young children and pregnant women, is ENTIRELY rational.

plenty of people, including myself, have talked about their horrific treatment at israeli borders, that one person said '16yos' as a flagrant bit of 'how it felt' (re: be they 16, 18 or 20 it is horrific to have a virtual child interogating you and behaving like a despot with no regard for your dignity or legal rights) rather than an accurate statement having checked their birht certs does not erase the reality of our treatment at those borders. to pick at the one bit you can and pretend it erases all the rest is an utter nonsense.

bambam plenty of people did sit on hillsides drinking beers and cheering at the bombing of gaza. or are you denying that? if so i'm sure we can produce the video evidence AGAIN.

Bambini: or maybe they fear being branded a liar..?

Secondly: just for your honour:

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza

People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive

As the sun begins to sink over the Mediterranean, groups of Israelis gather each evening on hilltops close to the Gaza border to cheer, whoop and whistle as bombs rain down on people in a hellish warzone a few miles away.

Old sofas, garden chairs, battered car seats and upturned crates provide seating for the spectators. On one hilltop, a swing has been attached to the branches of a pine tree, allowing its occupant to sway gently in the breeze. Some bring bottles of beer or soft drinks and snacks.

On Saturday, a group of men huddle around a shisha pipe. Nearly all hold up smartphones to record the explosions or to pose grinning, perhaps with thumbs up, for selfies against a backdrop of black smoke.

Despite reports that millions of Israelis are living in terror of Hamas rockets, they don't deter these hilltop war watchers whose proximity to Gaza puts them within range of the most rudimentary missiles. Some bring their children.

In the border town of Sderot, which has been struck by countless missiles from the Gaza Strip in recent years, one family gathers on a top-floor balcony, draped with an Israeli flag and banner of the army's legendary Golani Brigade. A house with a war view may even command a premium price these days.

Israeli man watches the bombardment as he sits on an old sofa left on a hillside in Sderot.

An atmosphere of anticipatory excitement grows as dusk falls, in the expectation that Hamas militants will increase rocket fire after breaking their Ramadan fast, and the Israeli military will respond with force.

The thud of shellfire, flash of an explosion and pall of smoke are greeted with exclamations of approval. "What a beauty," says one appreciative spectator.

Shimrit Peretz, 19, has come with her off-duty soldier boyfriend, Raz Sason, whose army-issue assault rifle is slung across his shoulders.

"We come to look at the bombing," Peretz says, adding that this is their fourth visit to the hilltop. They plan to stay several hours: "It's interesting." The pair have brought a backpack filled with bottles of water and bags of crisps.

the guardian must also be hysterical bs spewing liars

Yeah.. That must be it..Cant wait for the spluttering excuses...

"Yruapita: no doubt those women are the 'civilised ones' who tend to hide or accuse you of lying when you bring the mirror to thier face.

I wouldnt be surprised if they dragged thier sofas over the hills to watch the bombings as 'entertainment'. "

Were you not referencing posters on this site regarding this - basically saying that anyone who doesn't agree with your every word and challenges some of the bigoted and outrageous claims here would be happy to watch Gaza bombed from the hillsides. Again - hysterical and ridiculous and shutting down these conversations.

Or are you saying the actions of a few ignorant, racist Israelis represents every Israeli?

Nope. Try again.

But let us not forget there are victims on both sides ...

There are, yes - but that's not given much credence on here, where it sometimes seems that proving it's "all the other side's fault" is the priority, leading to nastier posts, more name-calling and general bad feeling all round

I sometimes wonder why the more vicious and blinkered posters fail to realise that their attitude, rather than being an answer, is actually part of the problem ...

when you say victims on both sides...

how many Jewish Israelis have had their homes and land stolen?

How many Jewish Israelis have been killed and maimed in the past couple of months?

How many Jewish Israelis children have been shelled to bits while playing football on a beach?

How many Jewish Israelis have been shot by snipers while climbing over the ruins of their home hoping to find survivors?

Sam, they may have links to Hamas but the killings were not ordered by Hamas.

Even if they were ordered by Hamas, the 'proportionate' response of Israel from June onwards has been illegal, barbaric and has left it increasingly isolated in the world.

Puzzled, ok lets look at proportionate blaming then, i blame Israel for the deaths of 2,139 people, of which 490 were children and over 70% civilians. I blame Hamas for the killing of 66 soldiers and 8 civilians.

7 civilians (including 1child) versus 1,498 civilians (including 490 children). As a percentage Israel is responsible for over 99% of all civilian deaths in those 50 days. So when the Palestinians say its all Israel's fault, they are not wrong there! The figures speak for themselves.

I sometimes wonder why the more vicious and blinkered posters fail to realise that their attitude, rather than being an answer, is actually part of the problem

Your statement above seems to have come straight out of the school of Mark Regev

attitudes of posters on mn aren't the problem no, the problem is the illegal murder of civilians, the targeting of schools and hospitals, killing children on beaches, smearing excrement all over the homes of families who have just been mass murdered by ground troops, blockading of a people and rationing their calories and standing in the way of them receiving medical treatment and preventing freedom of movement, the stealing of land and property, the creation of an apartheid system, the people in the streets chanting 'death to all arabs', etc.

an mn'ers attitude is not the problem - the deliberate, illegal and immoral actions of israel is the problem.

it's not the fault of palestinian civilians, it's not the fault of mn'ers, it's the fault of a nation choosing to behave this way. it's the fault of the perpetrators of these crimes - no one else.

let's be clear as old markie would say - i have never murdered anyone, never bombed a school, never blockaded one and a half million people into an open air prison and then rationed food going in, i have never stolen anyone's land, i have never chanted for the death of a whole people. i am not the problem or a part of it.

there is so much wiggling around to blame others for one nations behaviour. when it gets to the point that my attitude as an anti war and pro human rights commentator is 'part of the problem' we are in a world of complete madness. not only are we blaming the victims now we're also blaming people who name the perpetrator.

it's like saying that women's aid is part of the problem of domestic violence. or advocates for rape victims are part of the problem of rape. it's just the next step of victim blaming. now not only is the victim the problem but those who try to stand up for her are in for blaming too.

and to be called vicious for being against the actually vicious murdering of civilians is ridiculous. a poster is vicious but massive slaughter of civilians is ok? it's mindboggling.

I agreed that there were victims on both sides, Yrapita and PigletJohn ... the frankly rather distasteful decision to compare numbers was yours

To me, all of these deaths are appalling; the question of "what side they're on" matters less than the issue that every single one of them leaves behind a devastated family and friends, not to mention the potential for further hatred born of their grief

As I've said elsewhere, the hatred is for me the true root of the whole thing, which is why it seems a shame to see people whipping up yet more

I saw a crippled old lady fall over on the pavement, so I went over and kicked her repeatedly in the head. She fit me several times on the knee with her umbrella as she lay bleeding on the pavement. She soon died from her injuries, but my boot is scuffed and some my knee is bruised. So I've suffered too, right? We're both victims, right? And it would be distasteful to compare our injuries, right?

Bambambini - exactly. I don't really bother with this part of MN any more - it's a bit like the dark web, where all the dodgy nutters hang out. Which is a shame.

When some of the usual suspects on here tried to bring this debate into the light of day on the chat board, they suddenly discovered that far from their opinions being accepted, they came across as the extremists they actually are. So they ran away and hid on this board again, where they can quietly swap tales of evil Israelis like some kind of weird anti-Semitic fairy tale.

I don't think they've actually noticed that the war has finished.

PigletJohn - yes, Hamas militants like these are just like a "crippled old lady" who has "fallen over on the pavement", aren't they?

www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/22/us-mideast-gaza-idUSKBN0GM11320140822

Funny that, because they remind me rather of these guys, than an innocent elderly victim....

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/02/steven-sotloff-beheading-similarities-james-foley-killing

Is it a fashion thing, do you think, the all-black balaclava look? Or would what they have in common be that they both use Islam to justify killing innocent victims without trial?

What do you think?

And if we're talking numbers of people killed, I'm curious where the long threads are on here about the hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians (including Palestinians, who are of course the only civilians that actually matter) killed in Syria? Given that it's the numbers that matter, then you really ought to be boycotting some of the Arab nations.

Didadida

You are of course entirely welcome to start a thread about Syria or any other place that takes your fancy.

I promise not to come onto your Syria thread and try to divert it by arguing that you should be talking about Georgia or Chechnya or Ukraine.

BTW I gather that you think that the thousands of Palestinians who have been killed or maimed by Israel in the last couple of months, or have lost their homes at the hands of Israel, can all be written off as armed and masked gunmen.

It must make your life so much simpler to view all victims as undeserving and guilty.

just look at these wicked gunmen, swathed in balaclavas warning - shocking and revolting

And these people, who deliberately caused themselves to be sick so that they could loiter in the intensive care unit

"how many Jewish Israelis have had their homes and land stolen?

How many Jewish Israelis have been killed and maimed in the past couple of months?

How many Jewish Israelis children have been shelled to bits while playing football on a beach?

How many Jewish Israelis have been shot by snipers while climbing over the ruins of their home hoping to find survivors?"

Why the emphasis on "Jewish" here when you could have just said Israeli and people would have known what you meant just the same. I can almost hear the hate being spat through those words.

Well, the war will never finish. Hamas are driven by hatred of the Jews and hence they spend all aid money on building elaborate tunnels and rockets.

And the Israelis, well, one would hope they are far less heavy handed. One could never justify such attacks.

PigletJohn, your analogy is really quite silly.

The Palestinian people are also being totally screwed over by Hamas who is using them for their own race hate politics. They have made your little old lady hungry and weak and unable to have any future too. They give little kicks to your thug and then hide behind her. Scum.

So, if you condemn violence against the Palestinian people and support the victims, make sure you condemn Hamas too. You can look at just half of the picture if you want to. It will get the Palestinians nowhere.

Hamas are not freedom fighters. They are dick heads.

This paragraph from the EU Bulletin says it all:

"When the EU resumed its direct financial assistance to the Gaza Strip two years ago, EU foreign relations spokesperson, Michael Mann, said that “the EU needs to know who will be the [Palestinian] ministers and what will they say.” In 2014, one can ask: Who are in fact their ministers? Who governs the Palestinian territory? The Palestinian people have not only become the primary victim of the Middle East conflict but mainly of the anarchy that defines the “governance” of the Palestinian territory. Their leadership – whoever it is – does far too little to protect and improve their every-day lives – in fact, despite millions of dollars as foreign aid that the West sends to the region, the Palestinian economy keeps shrinking. What is worse though is that the Palestinian leaders are more interested in destroying the lives of its neighbours rather than in building a better future for their own population."

EU Bulletin

317.9 bn euros worth of development assistance to the Palestinian territories in 2012. "This made the West Bank and the Gaza Strip the second largest beneficiary of the EU foreign aid, before Turkey and followed by Afghanistan".

That is a lot of money. Where has that gone? It's certainly not benefitted the Palestinians. Or maybe just a few of them.

Just like good old Yasser Arafat spending millions on his fleets on Mercedes instead of his own people.

Are you denying that Hamas are brutal killers who murder their own as happily as they use human shields?

I'm not the one comparing Israeli soldiers to flower fairies or little old ladies, FFS.