Part 6: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Sorry, lost the end of the thread there!

Thread 5

Hi honeybadger I saw on the news they have agreed a long term ceasefire and, according to Twitter, Gazans seem to be celebrating. Currently looking at details - what's your view?

Finding it really hard to use the new look site on my mobile.

Just here to say thank god for the ceasefire. I hope it lasts. Twitter and fb mention that Israel has agreed to end the siege but no mention of this in the main news? Anyone know about this?

At first I was surprised to see Gazans celebrating the ceasefire, but their strength of character and sense of survival must be immense for them to be joyous at the start of a long ceasefire. I hope international pressure continues and israel is taken to the ICC. One commentator made a really valuable point that it is disastrous for international law that Israel does not get away with acting completely outside the boundaries of international and humanitarian law.

Just slightly off topic, but I read this today about isis : www.infowars.com/nsa-doc-reveals-isis-leader-al-baghdadi-is-u-s-british-and-israeli-intelligence-asset/

It makes complete sense to me now that isis was formed and created by mossad and the US. I often wondered by a so called muslim group would cause such bad feeling towards the very religion they are seemingly out to defend. Much like a false flag act but in human form.

www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.612637

In return for unlimited quiet, Israel agreed to immediately open the border crossings with Gaza to humanitarian aid and to extend the fishing zone to a distance of six nautical miles. Israel also agreed to the immediate entry of construction materials for the rebuilding of Gaza, without any guarantee from either Egypt or Hamas for the establishment of a monitoring mechanism to ensure that the cement and concrete is not used for the rehabilitation of the tunnels project.

Sorry if this is a stupid thing to say, but the agreement by Israel to let construction materials into Gaza, which they have pretty much obliterated, doesn't sound that gracious considering. I realise they don't want them being used to create more tunnels etc but still... Same for letting fishermen go out to six nautical miles - it's not right they decided to restrict things in the first place, surely?

I completely agree - i just wonder what has changed for Israel to agree now to these concessions, given that they could have agreed to the Kerry ceasefire proposal and given away far less than with this settlement.

Will look at sites tomorrow and see - I gave a hunch, not a lot.
God, it's such an awful situation! I'm glad there is a ceasefire but don't think one could say it's 'over' by any stretch

• HAVE a hunch, not 'gave'!

I guess like they said on C4 - this isn't peace, it just isn't war.

Not been able to post for a few days due to weddings etc. am still bocotting. Need to follow up with emails though.

Kelly, that us really wonderful what you are doing. How did the meeting go?

I gave up m&s long ago. Need to give up a fair few products still. Water wipes are off my list now. Hopefully aldi ones should be ok.

Havent needed to buy soap powder yet so dont know.

Off to read the links posted above, then bed.

seems to me, hunch only obviously, that something back door has happened and that perhaps israel has not agreed this off it's own back or within peace talks but has been told it's this or.... something from the international community. maybe that what they're doing and it's illegality is now so broadly known that the international courts couldn't be seen to ignore it if it continued at that level?

i can't see israel after all this conceding more than they'd conceded before iyswim. there has to have been a third party with a fair bit of weight involved to get them to offer this imo.

I'm glad there a ceasefire has finally been agreed. The Guardian reports that the terms appear "to be almost identical to those agreed at the end of the previous war 21 months ago" - I hope there can be a more lasting agreement that actually changes something to stop this all happening again in the not too distant future.

I think it's possible that the IDF has accomplished its goals in terms of tunnels and knows it can't accomplish much more about the rockets so the Israeli government was looking for a quick exit and so agreed to these terms. They're not particularly onerous for them and nothing like what Hamas demanded.

TBH I've taken a step back from this thread. I feel like the issues have been debated and there's enough information for people to make up their own minds, posters are taking action as they see fit and while I feel annoyed by the conspiracy theories I've done debating them.

Panorama have a programme on the tunnels on Monday 1st September at 8:30pm BBC1. I had been on the lookout for a Panorama programme on Gaza as I saw one Jeremy Bowen did in 2009 which was when I first heard about Izzeldin Abuelaish.

HoneyB I agree with your hunch as to the reasons for the agreements. I think there've been no public statements to save faces (wonder if Bliar was involved?!) but I also suspect there's been behind the scenes arm twisting with an offer to try to prevent/minimise legal action if steps are taken now.

Yes, praps we'll step back from this thread now, with some people (or hopefully many, if arab rights are still not being observed) continuing to boycott or take other action. (Great suggestion from Kelly BTW.) Will watch the Panorama programme on monday.

Thanks to all who suggested washing solutions. I've plumped for Alma Win, an all natural, eco friendly option, having read some hideous things about the chemicals in the popular cleaning products!

I got the buycott app but was a bit concerned about it cos Fairy washing tablets were not 'conflicted' while Fairy detergent was! Ditto Wrigley's chewing gum in small packs vs tubs. I don't understand what the implications are for products that arent recognised - by 'adding' them, are users saying they're acceptable or adding them to someone's list to check out? And the other thing that worried me was that all the lists I've seen of companies to boycott are no later than 2012. There was a comment somewhere that if Unilever had dropped its involvement with something (I forget what exactly now), it should be removed from the list, but that was from 2009! Still, I'm sure -as others have suggested - it's had some effect on the decisions made recently, so yes, in future, boycotting would seem to be the way forward when governments ignore us!

Thing hopefully can only get better from here on out.

Qn- it could maybe be to do with the packaging? Like the Plastic?

because boycotting is for many different reasons from

being produced in Israel (soda stream)
being grown in Israel (fruit)
Being affiliated with Israel ( M&S this was Disney but is no longer Disney)
Products used by Israel government against Palestinians in a negative way (caterpillar)
Companies profiting from the war (Barclays)

I think Unilever did transfer one of their manufacturing subsidies from the West Bank into Israel. As far as i know they still have a presence in Israel. I came across this article (it's from a pro-Israeli source) which says something about it, but also something else i didn't know:

Internal boycotts of Israeli products also became an issue, eventually prompting the Knesset to pass a controversial law in July 2011, banning calls for anti-Israel or anti-settlement boycotts. The legislation, formally called the "Law for Prevention of Damage to the State of Israel through Boycott," defines any call for an economic, academic or cultural boycott of Israel or the settlements as a "civil offense" and subjects Israeli groups or individuals calling for a boycott to lawsuits of nearly $10,000 without having to prove any damage.

Democracy in action.

Goldvelvet, can you clarify whether Disney should be on my boycott list?

Yruapita I hope this helps.

Disney

Disney, working with the Israeli embassy, was given 1.8 million dollars by Israel to promote Jerusalem as the capital of Israel at a special exhibition at its Epcot centre in Florida, strategically positioned so that every visitor to the centre would have to walk through the exhibition in order to reach the exit. Jerusalem is an illegally occupied Palestinian city and under international law can NEVER be the capital of Israel. The exhibition has since been removed so Disney is no longer on the boycott list.

boycottisraeltoday.wordpress.com/boycott-israel/

Brilliant! Thanks for that goldvelvet.

My kids will be happy.

Next question.....is McDonalds on the boycott list? Not too bothered about their meals and stuff which aren't great anyway, but I just love the ice cream which I tried for the first time ever around 2 months ago! Don't ask me why i thought it was so great, maybe it was the weather! Having said that, I am more than happy to boycott if they are on the list. I tried to google but didnt get a clear answer!

One thing I am pleased about is that i have given up Coca Cola! I was addicted to the stuff but had no problem ditching it now that i know that they are funders too. Yuk! I saw pepsi on a boycott list some weeks ago, but when I used the buycott app, pepsi max was legit. Is that correct? Sorry for the million questions.

No problem, McDonalds is definitely on the on the list as is Coca Cola. Luckily Autumn is just around the corner so hopefully the allure of McDonalds ice-cream will dwindle with the colder weather?

Well done for giving up coca cola, I haven't come across alternatives because I don't drink it but I can't see Pepsi on my lists. But to be honest it's not been on my radar because it's not a product I use. Sorry I couldn't be much more help.

There's an article in Ha'aretz today about children of mixed Jewish-Muslim marriages in Israel.

The BBC listings have changed and the Panorama programme on Gaza isn't on tomorrow. I will keep a look out for it the following week.

I think the list on that blog linked to upthread may be a good starting point for a list of products and companies to avoid, but further research needs to be done as I am not sure how up-to-date, accurate or impartial it is. I wouldn't take the word of a single blogger (or the Buycott app) as gospel. See here, here and here for example for McDonalds. They have no branches in the West Bank. I try to avoid them for environmental and health reasons anyway.

If, for example, Israeli growers find their sales are falling in the UK or they are being rejected by supermarket buyers they may well realise this is due to boycotts, but if McDonalds' or M&S's sales decline how are they going to know this is due to concerns about Israel - unless many consumers write to them to let them know?

I guess one of my concerns about wider boycotts (other than obvious ones like not buying Israeli produce) is that I feel I should only do this as part of a concerted effort to make my entire life as a consumer more ethical. For example, I sometimes buy clothes that are probably made in sweatshops like the Rana Plaza then sold in a supermarket that takes trade away from small shops and has other negative social and environmental impacts; I have more gadgets than is strictly necessary. This is just my personal feelings on the subject, however.

Wow - fascinating story about Nour. Wonder how things will pan out for her long term.

Israel's at it again i see - having already avenged themselves for the 3 teen kidnapping (just a bit!!) they're now rubber stamping the appropriation of more palestinian land as recompense! Sounds like attempted provocation to me: goading the Palestinians into 'threatening their security'. Gross, sickening, shameless, downright wicked. Where are our politicians? Oh yes, the only one to have spoken up recently is in hospital, having been bashed about the head for his audacity!
mobile.Reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0GV0D020140831?irpc=932
Boycott, boycott, boycott!

Thanks again goldvelvet. I will skip the ice cream too, well i've never had it since so can't have missed it that much! I am glad i quit coke, its one of the worst fizzy drinks IMO, too addictive.

I was looking forward to watching that documentary halfdrunk. Please let us know when its due on again.

Qnboudi, i keep saying this but nothing surprises me with Israel anymore!