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Part 3: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

961 replies

AndHarry · 26/07/2014 16:54

New thread as part 2 is nearly full.

Part 1 is here.

Part 1 was started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Part 2 is here.

In part 2 we mainly discussed the legality and human consequences of Operation Protective Edge.

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AndHarry · 29/07/2014 23:11

If you want to know more about Khatami I can recommend the Wikipedia article about him as a good introduction. Here.

OP posts:
runes · 29/07/2014 23:11

I was called hysterical on another thread for saying that the news of dead children made me cry. Wonder what that poster makes of this reaction m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/5630601

wannabestressfree · 29/07/2014 23:14

You were called hysterical as you were derailing a thread about anti semitism in Europe by continuing this thread elsewhere.

Nancery · 29/07/2014 23:17

Thanks again andHarry

AndHarry · 29/07/2014 23:38

Nads that's a very well-argued article.

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Yruapita · 30/07/2014 00:33

Claig, you have made some very interesting points. It's chilling.

The no children left in Gaza chants by the Israeli extreme right wing sent a shiver down my spine. Ayelet Shaked will be very pleased.

Still looking through the links and videos, trying to catch up with the thread. Am really interested in the boycott aspect. I wonder if asda, tesco etc made a loss this weekend due to boycotts as someone posted upthread about a tesco being unexpectedly quiet.

Really finding this thread very interesting and am feeling quite deflated to be honest. But we cannot let this gross injustice happen and just stand by and watch. This thread is our voice.

emma2277 · 30/07/2014 02:08

Bit pointlss maybe but anyway maybe

emma2277 · 30/07/2014 02:15

Just want the moderats to win so fk all the extremists you stink

HairyPorter · 30/07/2014 05:54

Coming on to the thread late as it's all very depressing and I have been burying my head in the sand about it all. When normal people start feeling that they need to do something and stand up for the Palestinians, you just wonder how many people who are closer to an extremist society (or who are exposed to extremist ideology) and being drawn into extremism. I feel so uneasy about standing by and watching things unfold... Can't help but wonder how this is going to be an extremely effective recruitment campaign for terrorists.

DieselSpillages · 30/07/2014 06:00

this explains the truth and extent of Britains arms exports to Israel... profiteering from mass murder.

Floisme · 30/07/2014 07:21

I am just delurking to thank everyone for this thread. I was staggeringly ignorant about it so have been following the discussions and reading the links. Please keep them coming.

I'm still learning but my main conclusion so far is that human beings are not nearly as clever as they think they are. Jeez what an stupid, stupid, stupid thing to do: take land away from one group of people, give it to another group and then expect them to live side by side afterwards. Unbelievable. I feel very sorry for everyone caught up in it - and I mean everyone.

I cannot begin to figure out how we can disentangle this now. I can see it wiping us all out but quite frankly on this showing, the world will probably be a better place without us.

TheHoneyBadger · 30/07/2014 07:27

morning.

some interesting reads this morning.

i doubt that leaked transcript is true btw - there is a massive right wingnut belief that obama is a communist AND a muslim AND whatever other bogeyman to the US they can think of and they're constantly making up pretty out there stuff. not least that michelle obama is actually a man (making a bogeyman homosexual out of obama too which apparently doesn't conflict with his muslim faith or best friends with putin the homophobe status).

it is interesting though that to americans like that obama advising restraint and to stop slaughtering civilians would be proof that he was a monster - say what?????

the worrying thing therefore is what US president ever COULD try and get israel to restrain itself when they've such extremists there that they've whipped up over decades to see arabs as bogeymen and israel as some white saint in a sea of evil. they'd certainly never be re-elected.

Springheeled · 30/07/2014 08:00

dieselspillages it is this arms trade that I think protestors should target more. Thales, Boeing, BAE and many more. They all have corporate twitter accounts and addresses etc and the MOD, Philip Hammond etc also do. Amnesty international have an email proforma on their website that you can dash off to your MP as well.
It's too easy to feel despair, because the situation is bleak and we are far away with no influence- BUT we can have an influence by letter writing, tweeting, protesting, boycotting and keeping the pressure on. South Africa for example- peoples protests did make a difference.
I'm just trying to do one thing a day to counter what I see on the news- it doesn't stop me despairing but it makes me despair less.
Boycotting: i read that MAC cosmetics and Victoria's Secret had links to Israel. I don't buy either brand, but they probably both have twitter accounts?

halfdrunkcoffee · 30/07/2014 08:43

Regarding little things you can do:

This is a very moving video that you can add your name to.

And a letter to David Cameron you can sign.

PigletJohn · 30/07/2014 08:45

On another thread, a poster claimed that Tesco had banned some Israeli imports. I don't suppose this is actually true, since banning imports is a job for governments.

However, it did remind me of a problem that has been kicking around the International Trade arena for years, but has been swept under the carpet with the help of subterfuge and lies.

The EU has a Free Trade Agreement with Israel, which permits their products such as cosmetics, drugs and fruit to come over with no duty charged.

The problem arises because Israelis consider that they own the whole of Palestine, and of course this includes the Occupied Territories and the Illegal Settlements. Israel considers that the Illegal Settlements are not illegal, so it sticks "Product of Israel" on whatever comes out of the farms and factories in occupied Palestine.

In the same way that, seventy years ago, when Germany and the Soviet Union between them occupied most of mainland Europe, they might have considered themselves entitled to stick labels saying "Produce of Germany" or "Soviet Made" on French wine or Polish ships.

The issue has been fudged because, until now, most often the EU authorities have written a letter to Israeli exporters, saying "does this product come from Israel, or does it come from illegal settlements" and the exporters have written a letter back saying "it comes from Israel."

It is possible that the official lies about produce from the Illegal Settlements may not be accepted for ever.

Some of these links are quite old, because, as I say, the fraud has been going on a long time and most governments didn't want to speak out because any action will be met by a torrent of abuse.

www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-to-crack-down-on-products-from-israeli-settlements-a-882623.html

electronicintifada.net/content/ugly-reality-israels-settlement-made-beauty-products/8373

PigletJohn · 30/07/2014 08:59

one of those links is apparently hosted by some kind of pressure group, you may prefer this one
www.qcea.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/EU-Trade-with-Israeli-Settlements1.pdf

Springheeled · 30/07/2014 09:02

Very interesting links piglet and halfdrunkcoffee

I was sad to see that Tinylove toys are on the boycott list: remember hours of ds bashing at his Tinylove activity centre and the Mozart mobile hanging over the dcs cots. Talk about a contrast between what that company condones in Palestine and the baby and toddlerhood images they use to promote their brand!

sherazade · 30/07/2014 09:03

Iran will not get involved in the conflict. Their anti-Israel ranting is all part of their pseudo-religious rhetoric that will thankfully not materialise into anything. Iran claims to be pro- arab with their tongues and behind the scenes is sponoring the persecution of sunni muslims in its own country, plus in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. Gaza's only genuine and hopefully constructive support in the region lies in Qatar and Turkey.

ohmymimi · 30/07/2014 09:26

display.com/press display/iphone/homepage.aspx#_article9904ba5-5ca9-44fd-9da0-024b614d4b42-1
This is an interesting and enlightening article by Patrick Cockburn from last Sunday's Indie. It gives insight to the Israeli PR strategy.

PigletJohn · 30/07/2014 09:30

"www.press is unavailable or may not exist"

AndHarry · 30/07/2014 09:30

This Chatham House article explores HairyPorter's fear of frustration at the conflict encouraging young Muslims to go and fight alongside the extremists in Gaza. There's also a program on Radio 4 later about the same thing.

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ohmymimi · 30/07/2014 09:35

Sorry folks, the link does not work. Anyway, the article, 'Secret Report Helps Israel to Hide Facts', is in World News on p35 of Indie on Sunday on-line. Maybe someone more IT adept than I could put up a link. It is definitely worth the effort of finding and reading. It explains a lot.

AndHarry · 30/07/2014 09:43

It's this article ohmymini :)

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halfdrunkcoffee · 30/07/2014 09:43

Do you mean article ohmymimi? I think it was linked to somewhere upthread.

halfdrunkcoffee · 30/07/2014 09:45

Springheeled: I do not think the TinyLove company is actually dropping bombs in Gaza. Who knows the political beliefs of people who work for the company? The products are probably made in China anyway. The idea of a boycott is to put economic pressure on Israel to change its actions.

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