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Part 3: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

961 replies

AndHarry · 26/07/2014 16:54

New thread as part 2 is nearly full.

Part 1 is here.

Part 1 was started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Part 2 is here.

In part 2 we mainly discussed the legality and human consequences of Operation Protective Edge.

OP posts:
GoshAnneGorilla · 29/07/2014 19:08

Iran is busy with Iraq and Syria. Now is absolutely not the time to attack for them.

Saudi Arabia do not like Hamas as they do not like populist Islamist movements generally, as they might give people in Saudi Arabia ideas. They will condemn Israeli aggression but that is about it.

Egypt does not like Hamas and is very keen to curry favour with the US. They won't do anything, particularly as they are in the middle of a massive crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

UAE are sending aid to Gaza, but have made no political overtures.

Qatar is very keen to be the major player in the region, they have pushed themselves as a peace broker, but Israel does not to deal with them.

Turkey also wants to play peacemaker.

That's about it for the region. The Arab league is a weak, servile, body.

ReigningQueen · 29/07/2014 19:10

John Kerry seems to be busying involved in this and keen to progress negotiations. What's keeping him??

emma2277 · 29/07/2014 19:15

RQ the USA are in between a rock and a hard place, the incestuous relationship with Israel binds their hearts mind and policies

claig · 29/07/2014 19:19

'But if it's not too dumb a question, why would the West want to start a world war...?

To maintain global hegemony. China is rising economically and is expanding in Africa and Latin America. The US and Western companies want to secure the oil and resources of the world and keep them out of China's hands. Russia sits on probably most of the world's resources and the West wants to get them. Israel will then be able to solve its problems as well because there will be a Sunni/Shia war in the Middle East where the newly created and funded Isis will fight the Shia alongside Al Qaeda and all the rest of them. Iran, Syria and Hezbollah will be attacked and all Arab countries will be weakened and destroyed.

The BRICS contries set up their BRICS bank two days before the Malaysian jet was shot down and now Russia is being blamed. The dollar is under threat and the West will have to act soon to maintain global hegemony. They can't wait decades because the dollar may collapse, the BRICs will strengthen and China will strengthen.

thecatfromjapan · 29/07/2014 19:19

Michael Oren is sounding obscene on C4. Deranged and obscene. It is s hocking to realise how secure in American support he must feel in order to speak like this.

claig · 29/07/2014 19:22

'Claig there are too many sane intellgent people in the world to let this bullshit escalate'

No. Haven't you seen the puppets, the so-called leaders who have all their teleophone calls listened to? They all go against Russia because they are told to. They will do as they are told.

Backinthering · 29/07/2014 19:22

Did anyone else just see Chris Gunnan, a UN official in Gaza, struggling not to cry when being interviewed on Al Jazeera?
What did Michael Oren say thecat?

somewheresafe · 29/07/2014 19:27

The number of times I've been labelled anti semitic on these threads is laughable. Until I tell them I'm a jew. And once they decide they can't accuse me of being anti semitic I'm either a self hating jew or stupid for not understanding the complexities of the situation.

Because only israel apologists are educated enough to know all the nuances. Anyone sympathising with palestine must be stupid.

It's pathetic. Like I said earlier I have come to my viewpoint having lived in the region and researched both angles.

emma2277 · 29/07/2014 19:30

Add message | Report | Message poster thecatfromjapan Tue 29-Jul-14 19:19:55
Michael Oren is sounding obscene on C4. Deranged and obscene. It is s hocking to realise how secure in American support he must feel in order to speak like this.
---
Just another boring lying scripted deluded bullshitting mouth who cant take responsibility

emma2277 · 29/07/2014 19:32

Add message | Report | Message poster claig Tue 29-Jul-14 19:22:19
'Claig there are too many sane intellgent people in the world to let this bullshit escalate'

No. Haven't you seen the puppets, the so-called leaders who have all their teleophone calls listened to? They all go against Russia because they are told to. They will do as they are told.

---

Well I pity the world then.....run by monsters

ReigningQueen · 29/07/2014 19:33

Yes I've noticed that somewheresafe. There are so many Jewish people speaking out and demonstrating against what Israel is doing. What do the Israeli supporters think of them? I've not heard them answer that question when it's been asked.

emma2277 · 29/07/2014 19:35

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TheHoneyBadger · 29/07/2014 19:37

why would they want to start a war?

imo part of it might be the growing dissidence and unrest within their own populations who are disgusted by 'austerity' and clear, endless and un-dealt-with corruption leaking out (be it expenses fraud, paedophilia or arms deals with despots or just plain clear and outright refusal to represent people rather than big business). also strangely enough it seems war is big business and money into the 'right' pockets. also geopolitics and resource grabbing.

those are just a few thoughts - delve deeper and there's tons.

war is a great distractor, money maker and diversion. it has also always been about controlling key resources, routes and bases of operations.

we should not be surprised that the US has no problem with the deliberate destruction of civilian life - iraq was but ten minutes ago and the carnage is still going. also the US has quite happily been developing and deploying drones to destroy life without even having to risk life in the process.

iran allegedly has nuclear capacity -never mind that so too does israel, the US, britain and all the rest of us, we're 'right', we can't let the decreed 'wrong' have the same atrocious and world destroying weapons as 'we' do. there is no popular mandate for attacking them. there was no popular mandate for iraq either but they ploughed ahead but realistically it did drive a massive wedge between the people and hegemonic rule. this time they want to manufacture something more persuasive imo. trouble is that we're just not as thick as they would love to think we are so whatever they do it is going to be obvious.

don't get sucked into the racial good guys bad guys PR. baby slaughter and weapons of extreme evil used against civilians = wrong. no matter what colour skin, what religion or what nationality does it.

emma2277 · 29/07/2014 19:40

RQ when propagandists with an agenda or just people just blinded by strongly held beliefs, post and read and get asked awkward questions they go silent......says it all really...hopefully its to meditate but hardly ever is.....now fingers crossed some ceasefire is going to happen and we wont have another day of wanton carnage and destruction against innocent vulnerable defenceless peoples and their land and infrastructure, bye for now, down to all warmongers

TheHoneyBadger · 29/07/2014 19:41

intelligence is fuck all to do with it - power and money is everything to do with it. those with it are not going to give up without a fight and they'd gladly sacrifice every single one of us rather than give it up. and they won't give a flying fuck what religion or colour or nationality you are.

Backinthering · 29/07/2014 19:53

The Israeli ambassador to the US thinks that the Israeli Defence Force should be given the Nobel Peace Prize for it's "unimaginable restraint" in Gaza.
It's become Kafka-esque.

www.timesofisrael.com/dermer-idf-deserves-nobel-peace-prize-for-unimaginable-restraint/

ReigningQueen · 29/07/2014 19:55

They are deranged.

TheHoneyBadger · 29/07/2014 19:55

it is surreal beyond belief backinthering. orwell couldn't have come up with this shit.

emma2277 · 29/07/2014 20:04

Add message | Report | Message poster Backinthering Tue 29-Jul-14 19:53:49
The Israeli ambassador to the US thinks that the Israeli Defence Force should be given the Nobel Peace Prize for it's "unimaginable restraint" in Gaza.
It's become Kafka-esque.

www.timesofisrael.com/dermer-idf-deserves-nobel-peace-prize-for-unimaginable-restraint/

---

the mans obviously had a lobotomy and some app inplanted in his brain, heard it all now, the amount of shit is truiy astounding, these people are denigrating their own country and religion, traitors I guess in a way in top of everything else >>>>>>

AndHarry · 29/07/2014 20:31

The main argument I've seen against global conspiracy theories is that the various governments supposedly involved are too busy to cunningly plan and execute them, particularly in the case of democracies when the government and legislature changes regularly. The only people who have the time to plan this sort of world domination scheme are folk like Vladimir Putin and he turns out to be crap at it. Witness the 'spontaneous uprising' in the Crimea, entirely planned and staffed by conveniently well-trained and well-armed 'volunteers'. No one fell for the line trotted out and it only worked because Putin didn't give a monkey's what the rest of the world thought.

We might well be heading for WW3 but I seriously doubt that anyone planned it.

OP posts:
thecatfromjapan · 29/07/2014 20:32

I keep thinking of 1984 too. It's extraordinary.

tiggersreturn · 29/07/2014 20:32

I liked this article by a Pakistani journalist. I don't agree with parts of 2 as I do think there was a security rationale at one point for this and the points in 7 are gathered from some loonies who are not representative of anyone but themselves but on the whole a pretty good article.

Posted over a couple of posts because of width restrictions.

7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict

Are you "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine"? It isn't even noon yet as I write this, and I've already been accused of being both.

These terms intrigue me because they directly speak to the doggedly tribal nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. You don't hear of too many other countries being universally spoken of this way. Why these two? Both Israelis and Palestinians are complex, with diverse histories and cultures, and two incredibly similar (if divisive) religions. To come down completely on the side of one or the other doesn't seem rational to me.

It is telling that most Muslims around the world support Palestinians, and most Jews support Israel. This, of course, is natural but it's also problematic. It means that this is not about who's right or wrong as much as which tribe or nation you are loyal to. It means that Palestinian supporters would be just as ardently pro-Israel if they were born in Israeli or Jewish families, and vice versa. It means that the principles that guide most people's view of this conflict are largely accidents of birth that however we intellectualize and analyze the components of the Middle East mess, it remains, at its core, a tribal conflict.

By definition, tribal conflicts thrive and survive when people take sides. Choosing sides in these kinds of conflicts fuels them further and deepens the polarization. And worst of all, you get blood on your hands.

So before picking a side in this latest Israeli-Palestine conflict, consider these 7 questions:

*

  1. Why is everything so much worse when there are Jews involved?

Over 700 people have died in Gaza as of this writing. Muslims have woken up around the world. But is it really because of the numbers?

Bashar al-Assad has killed over 180,000 Syrians, mostly Muslim, in two years -- more than the number killed in Palestine in two decades. Thousands of Muslims in Iraq and Syria have been killed by ISIS in the last two months. Tens of thousands have been killed by the Taliban. Half a million black Muslims were killed by Arab Muslims in Sudan. The list goes on.

But Gaza makes Muslims around the world, both Sunni and Shia, speak up in a way they never do otherwise. Up-to-date death counts and horrific pictures of the mangled corpses of Gazan children flood their social media timelines every day. If it was just about the numbers, wouldn't the other conflicts take precedence? What is it about then?

If I were Assad or ISIS right now, I'd be thanking God I'm not Jewish.

Amazingly, many of the graphic images of dead children attributed to Israeli bombardment that are circulating online are from Syria, based on a BBC report. Many of the pictures you're seeing are of children killed by Assad, who is supported by Iran, which also funds Hezbollah and Hamas. What could be more exploitative of dead children than attributing the pictures of innocents killed by your own supporters to your enemy simply because you weren't paying enough attention when your own were killing your own?

This doesn't, by any means, excuse the recklessness, negligence, and sometimes outright cruelty of Israeli forces. But it clearly points to the likelihood that the Muslim world's opposition to Israel isn't just about the number of dead.

Here is a question for those who grew up in the Middle East and other Muslim-majority countries like I did: if Israel withdrew from the occupied territories tomorrow, all in one go and went back to the 1967 borders and gave the Palestinians East Jerusalem -- do you honestly think Hamas wouldn't find something else to pick a fight about? Do you honestly think that this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they are Jews? Do you recall what you watched and heard on public TV growing up in Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Egypt?

Yes, there's an unfair and illegal occupation there, and yes, it's a human rights disaster. But it is also true that much of the other side is deeply driven by anti-Semitism. Anyone who has lived in the Arab/Muslim world for more than a few years knows that. It isn't always a clean, one-or-the-other blame split in these situations like your Chomskys and Greenwalds would have you believe. It's both.

*

  1. Why does everyone keep saying this is not a religious conflict?

There are three pervasive myths that are widely circulated about the "roots" of the Middle East conflict:

Myth 1: Judaism has nothing to do with Zionism.
Myth 2: Islam has nothing to do with Jihadism or anti-Semitism.
Myth 3: This conflict has nothing to do with religion.

To the "I oppose Zionism, not Judaism!" crowd, is it mere coincidence that this passage from the Old Testament (emphasis added) describes so accurately what's happening today?

"I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods." - Exodus 23:31-32
Or this one?

"See, I have given you this land. Go in and take possession of the land the Lord swore he would give to your fathers to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and to their descendants after them." - Deuteronomy 1:8
There's more: Genesis 15:18-21, and Numbers 34 for more detail on the borders. Zionism is not the "politicization" or "distortion" of Judaism. It is the revival of it.

And to the "This is not about Islam, it's about politics!" crowd, is this verse from the Quran (emphasis added) meaningless?

"O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you--then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people." - Quran, 5:51
What about the numerous verses and hadith quoted in Hamas' charter? And the famous hadith of the Gharqad tree explicitly commanding Muslims to kill Jews?

Please tell me in light of these passages written centuries and millennia before the creation of Israel or the occupation how can anyone conclude that religion isn't at the root of this, or at least a key driving factor? You may roll your eyes at these verses, but they are taken very seriously by many of the players in this conflict, on both sides. Shouldn't they be acknowledged and addressed? When is the last time you heard a good rational, secular argument supporting settlement expansion in the West Bank?

Denying religion's role seems to be a way to be able to criticize the politics while remaining apologetically "respectful" of people's beliefs for fear of "offending" them. But is this apologism and "respect" for inhuman ideas worth the deaths of human beings?

People have all kinds of beliefs -- from insisting the Earth is flat to denying the Holocaust. You may respect their right to hold these beliefs, but you're not obligated to respect the beliefs themselves. It's 2014, and religions don't need to be "respected" any more than any other political ideology or philosophical thought system. Human beings have rights. Ideas don't. The oft-cited politics/religion dichotomy in Abrahamic religions is false and misleading. All of the Abrahamic religions are inherently political.

*

  1. Why would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

This is the single most important issue that gets everyone riled up, and rightfully so.

Again, there is no justification for innocent Gazans dying. And there's no excuse for Israel's negligence in incidents like the killing of four children on a Gazan beach. But let's back up and think about this for a minute.

Why on Earth would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

When civilians die, Israel looks like a monster. It draws the ire of even its closest allies. Horrific images of injured and dead innocents flood the media. Ever-growing anti-Israel protests are held everywhere from Norway to New York. And the relatively low number of Israeli casualties (we'll get to that in a bit) repeatedly draws allegations of a "disproportionate" response. Most importantly, civilian deaths help Hamas immensely.

How can any of this possibly ever be in Israel's interest?

If Israel wanted to kill civilians, it is terrible at it. ISIS killed more civilians in two days (700 plus) than Israel has in two weeks. Imagine if ISIS or Hamas had Israel's weapons, army, air force, US support, and nuclear arsenal. Their enemies would've been annihilated long ago. If Israel truly wanted to destroy Gaza, it could do so within a day, right from the air. Why carry out a more painful, expensive ground incursion that risks the lives of its soldiers?

*

tiggersreturn · 29/07/2014 20:33
  1. Does Hamas really use its own civilians as human shields?

Ask Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas how he feels about Hamas' tactics.

"What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?" he asks. "I don't like trading in Palestinian blood."

It isn't just speculation anymore that Hamas puts its civilians in the line of fire.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri plainly admitted on Gazan national TV that the human shield strategy has proven "very effective."

The UN relief organization UNRWA issued a furious condemnation of Hamas after discovering hidden rockets in not one, but two children's schools in Gaza last week.

Hamas fires thousands of rockets into Israel, rarely killing any civilians or causing any serious damage. It launches them from densely populated areas, including hospitals and schools.

Why launch rockets without causing any real damage to the other side, inviting great damage to your own people, then putting your own civilians in the line of fire when the response comes? Even when the IDF warns civilians to evacuate their homes before a strike, why does Hamas tell them to stay put?

Because Hamas knows its cause is helped when Gazans die. If there is one thing that helps Hamas most one thing that gives it any legitimacy it is dead civilians. Rockets in schools. Hamas exploits the deaths of its children to gain the world's sympathy. It uses them as a weapon.

You don't have to like what Israel is doing to abhor Hamas. Arguably, Israel and Fatah are morally equivalent. Both have a lot of right on their side. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't have a shred of it.

*

  1. Why are people asking for Israel to end the "occupation" in Gaza?

Because they have short memories.

In 2005, Israel ended the occupation in Gaza. It pulled out every last Israeli soldier. It dismantled every last settlement. Many Israeli settlers who refused to leave were forcefully evicted from their homes, kicking and screaming.

This was a unilateral move by Israel, part of a disengagement plan intended to reduce friction between Israelis and Palestinians. It wasn't perfect Israel was still to control Gaza's borders, coastline, and airspace but considering the history of the region, it was a pretty significant first step.

After the evacuation, Israel opened up border crossings to facilitate commerce. The Palestinians were also given 3,000 greenhouses which had already been producing fruit and flowers for export for many years.

But Hamas chose not to invest in schools, trade, or infrastructure. Instead, it built an extensive network of tunnels to house thousands upon thousands of rockets and weapons, including newer, sophisticated ones from Iran and Syria. All the greenhouses were destroyed.

Hamas did not build any bomb shelters for its people. It did, however, build a few for its leaders to hide out in during airstrikes. Civilians are not given access to these shelters for precisely the same reason Hamas tells them to stay home when the bombs come.

Gaza was given a great opportunity in 2005 that Hamas squandered by transforming it into an anti-Israel weapons store instead of a thriving Palestinian state that, with time, may have served as a model for the future of the West Bank as well. If Fatah needed yet another reason to abhor Hamas, here it was.

*

  1. Why are there so many more casualties in Gaza than in Israel?

The reason fewer Israeli civilians die is not because there are fewer rockets raining down on them. It's because they are better protected by their government.

When Hamas' missiles head towards Israel, sirens go off, the Iron Dome goes into effect, and civilians are rushed into bomb shelters. When Israeli missiles head towards Gaza, Hamas tells civilians to stay in their homes and face them.

While Israel's government urges its civilians to get away from rockets targeted at them, Gaza's government urges its civilians to get in front of missiles not targeted at them.

The popular explanation for this is that Hamas is poor and lacks the resources to protect its people like Israel does. The real reason, however, seems to have more to do with disordered priorities than deficient resources (see #5). This is about will, not ability. All those rockets, missiles, and tunnels aren't cheap to build or acquire. But they are priorities. And it's not like Palestinians don't have a handful of oil-rich neighbors to help them the way Israel has the US.

The problem is, if civilian casualties in Gaza drop, Hamas loses the only weapon it has in its incredibly effective PR war. It is in Israel's national interest to protect its civilians and minimize the deaths of those in Gaza. It is in Hamas' interest to do exactly the opposite on both fronts.

*

  1. If Hamas is so bad, why isn't everyone pro-Israel in this conflict?

Because Israel's flaws, while smaller in number, are massive in impact.

Many Israelis seem to have the same tribal mentality that their Palestinian counterparts do. They celebrate the bombing of Gaza the same way many Arabs celebrated 9/11. A UN report recently found that Israeli forces tortured Palestinian children and used them as human shields. They beat up teenagers. They are often reckless with their airstrikes. They have academics who explain how rape may be the only truly effective weapon against their enemy. And many of them callously and publicly revel in the deaths of innocent Palestinian children.

To be fair, these kinds of things do happen on both sides. They are an inevitable consequence of multiple generations raised to hate the other over the course of 65 plus years. To hold Israel up to a higher standard would mean approaching the Palestinians with the racism of lowered expectations.

However, if Israel holds itself to a higher standard like it claims -- it needs to do much more to show it isn't the same as the worst of its neighbors.

Israel is leading itself towards increasing international isolation and national suicide because of two things: 1. The occupation; and 2. Settlement expansion.

Settlement expansion is simply incomprehensible. No one really understands the point of it. Virtually every US administration from Nixon to Bush to Obama has unequivocally opposed it. There is no justification for it except a Biblical one (see #2), which makes it slightly more difficult to see Israel's motives as purely secular.

The occupation is more complicated. The late Christopher Hitchens was right when he said this about Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories:

"In order for Israel to become part of the alliance against whatever we want to call it, religious barbarism, theocratic, possibly thermonuclear theocratic or nuclear theocratic aggression, it can't, it'll have to dispense with the occupation. It's as simple as that.
It can be, you can think of it as a kind of European style, Western style country if you want, but it can't govern other people against their will. It can't continue to steal their land in the way that it does every day.And it's unbelievably irresponsible of Israelis, knowing the position of the United States and its allies are in around the world, to continue to behave in this unconscionable way. And I'm afraid I know too much about the history of the conflict to think of Israel as just a tiny, little island surrounded by a sea of ravening wolves and so on. I mean, I know quite a lot about how that state was founded, and the amount of violence and dispossession that involved. And I'm a prisoner of that knowledge. I can't un-know it."
As seen with Gaza in 2005, unilateral disengagement is probably easier to talk about than actually carry out. But if it Israel doesn't work harder towards a two-state (maybe three-state, thanks to Hamas) solution, it will eventually have to make that ugly choice between being a Jewish-majority state or a democracy.

It's still too early to call Israel an apartheid state, but when John Kerry said Israel could end up as one in the future, he wasn't completely off the mark. It's simple math. There are only a limited number of ways a bi-national Jewish state with a non-Jewish majority population can retain its Jewish identity. And none of them are pretty.

*

Let's face it, the land belongs to both of them now. Israel was carved out of Palestine for Jews with help from the British in the late 1940s just like my own birthplace of Pakistan was carved out of India for Muslims around the same time. The process was painful, and displaced millions in both instances. But it's been almost 70 years. There are now at least two or three generations of Israelis who were born and raised in this land, to whom it really is a home, and who are often held accountable and made to pay for for historical atrocities that are no fault of their own. They are programmed to oppose "the other" just as Palestinian children are. At its very core, this is a tribal religious conflict that will never be resolved unless people stop choosing sides.

So you really don't have to choose between being "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine." If you support secularism, democracy, and a two-state solution and you oppose Hamas, settlement expansion, and the occupation you can be both.

If they keep asking you to pick a side after all of that, tell them you're going with hummus.

tiggersreturn · 29/07/2014 20:33

and the link www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html

dingalong · 29/07/2014 20:34

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