Part 3: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread as part 2 is nearly full.

Part 1 is here.

Part 1 was started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Part 2 is here.

In part 2 we mainly discussed the legality and human consequences of Operation Protective Edge.

TBH I've learned a huge amount from these threads. No less feeling of despair than when I started though. Does anyone else look at some of the crap spouted by foreign politicians and think that our Westminster bunch seem reasonable and overly-polite creatures in comparison? I mean, can you imagine George Osborne declaring membership of the SNP to be a 'ticket to hell'? (In public...)

Arafat did die in the lap of (French) luxury, didn't he...

I wonder how he made his millions?

If you make promises at peace talks that you can't keep or have no intention of keeping then I would think 'liar' is a more apt term for you than traitor, on one level.

The traitor bit comes in I suppose when you consider the ramifications of lying -- who wants to negotiate with a liar?

Certainly not those who have tried before and have seen their belief that negotiation in good faith is possible. It discredits those who stuck their necks out and insisted the Palestinians could be negotiated with. It lends credence to those insisting that Palestinians have no intention of negotiating in good faith. He betrayed those in Israel who put their faith in negotiation.

Of course the people he most betrayed are his own -- it is surely a betrayal of trust to portray yourself as untrustworthy to a negotiating partner when the lives of the millions of impoverished people you represent could potentially be improved as a result of negotiation.

AndHarry, Egypt is actively clamping down on the Muslim Brotherhood withing Egypt and of course trying to squeeze them as much as possible outside of Egypt. Since Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood are closely aligned, Hamas was banned in Egypt in March.

Guardian, 4 March 2914
'Most of the estimated 1,200 tunnels between Gaza and Egypt – which served as a crucial source of revenue and supplies to the blockaded strip – have been destroyed by the Egyptian army. During Morsi's various post-overthrow trials, Egyptian prosecutors have also charged Hamas officials with espionage and terrorism – and suggested that Hamas helped to engineer Egypt's 2011 revolution.

The new Egyptian regime sees Hamas as a threat to national security. They claim that the Palestinian group, from its vantage point in the Gaza Strip, has supported Islamist militants based in Sinai who have waged an insurgency against Egyptian police and soldiers since Morsi's removal. Hamas has consistently denied the charges. But according to Charles Lister, a visiting fellow at the Brookings Doha centre, Sinai's main militant group – Ansar Beyt al-Maqdis (ABM) – has at least some links to the Gaza-based militants.

The Mujahideen Shura Council, which is based in Gaza but has a limited operational presence in the Sinai, "almost certainly maintains relations with ABM," Lister told the Guardian in January.'

That's 2014...

Yes indeed, AndHarry.

If we agree that Israel is incapable of working towards peace by giving up illegal settlements or occupied territories, or of granting Right of Return to the dispossessed (unless they are Jewish) then I suppose all we can hope to achieve is a reduction in the oppression, killing and maiming of the remaining Palestinians.

Today they are committed, not to a reduction, but to an increase.

Really interesting links today, particularly the ones from The Independent thank you babbas and great post AndHarry.

Mathanxiety, your posts make no sense at all because you are confusing Arafat who represents The PLO ( and who the Israel are happy to negotiate with - wonder why?) with Hamas . Arafat died wealthy because he sold the Palestinian cause. There was always a falseness about the punch and judy- esque antagonism between the PLO and Israel but they've always talked.
So you have suggested we shouldn't talk to Hamas because of Arafat ( the two are unrelated anyway so this point is irrelevant) and therefore violence (mass murder and displacement) is the only way forward? What an odd, ill informed and dangerous viewpoint.
I'm starting to get upset again as its eid tomorrow and i hope no children die please tomorrow.

Andharry some great posts from you. I'm surprised that I'm still learning on thread 3.

Feeling very sad at the moment. My neighbours have just come round with dates, fruit and sweets and gifts as it's eid here tomorrow. We talked about Gaza and then sat and cried together at the thought of nearly 350 children not opening their presents tomorrow and over 1000 families not celebrating having lost loved ones.

I was told eid prep is usually done before ramadan so all the toys and clothes will either be under rubble or not used as people mourn. The thought of all those children who should tonight be excited about opening presents and eating food with parents and grandparents has really affected me. We must remember that every statistic is a person. Another family bereft.

Very last post from me tonight. Somewhere in all the material I've been reading in the past few weeks I read that the Israeli government initially supported Hamas back in the 70's as an undermining force against Fatah. If that's so, was the annihilation of Israel part of Hamas' charter then or did it follow later?

X-post. I'm glad to have started this discussion. I have learned so much and have many, many times read things that led me to question my own views and pre-suppositions. I'm just sorry that it was necessary.

The traditional greeting in both Hebrew and Arabic is 'peace be upon you'/Shalom aleichem/As-salaam alaikum. These are two peoples who should be brothers.

Eid mubarak and may peace be upon the innocent of Israel and Palestine.

Yes eid Mubarak to all celebrating. I'm praying for peace for both sides. And freedom for palestine.

Also feeling very sad tonight. Just saw a picture that really got to me and it wasn't even a horrific or gory one. It was the picture of a children's ward in a hospital, full of dust and rubble. There were pictures of cartoons painted on the walls. People had cared enough to try and make a hospital stay a little less scary for children, and someone else just came along and ruined it.
I can barely imagine the horror, grief, sadness and despair of those poor poor people. How will they get over this? How will their lives ever get put back together? How will they not all be suffering from PTSD?
Hate that I'm going to go to sleep and tomorrow there will be more people dead.
Sorry for rambling, just feel total despair tonight at the situation.

Just found a great response to the 'what about the deaths in Syria' type posts. Owen Jones sums it up very well. owenjonesramblings.tumblr.com/post/93010045984/the-whataboutery-of-israels-defenders

I was feeling very sad today too and frustrated so I just did two things- both probably pointless: I rang the bbc (again) because the news drove me mad (again) and emailed head offices of all the supermarkets that stock Israeli produce. Silly little things but about all I can do from an armchair on a Sunday. I just hoped I wasn't the only one doing such things.

Those children. Nothing can ever unmake their deaths. I don't believe in heaven or hell so where and when will justice for their killers ever be served? Why did their lives have to be lost? How can people know that a child has been killed each hour and still support the IDF and Israeli govt?

The pope had it right- please, let it stop. Let there be peace.

sherazade Sun 27-Jul-14 21:55:42

Mathanxiety, your posts make no sense at all because you are confusing Arafat who represents The PLO ( and who the Israel are happy to negotiate with - wonder why?) with Hamas.

...and there was me thinking Hamas and Fatah had declared some sort of burying of the hatchet. In fact, according to GoshAnne, the wicked Israeli government manufactured the current crisis in order to somehow destroy the unity...

Arafat died wealthy because he sold the Palestinian cause. There was always a falseness about the punch and judy- esque antagonism between the PLO and Israel but they've always talked.

...are you suggesting that Israel somehow bribed Arafat? What would they hope to gain by bribing Arafat and engaging in fake negotiations while Israel was under constant attack, from rocket fire and at one point by a campaign of suicide bombing? Was there some mutual grisly secret pact to keep on falsely negotiating while at the same time killing each other? What did the PLO hope to gain?

So you have suggested we shouldn't talk to Hamas because of Arafat (the two are unrelated anyway so this point is irrelevant) and therefore violence (mass murder and displacement) is the only way forward?

Again -- ?
Have I suggested that anywhere?

What an odd, ill informed and dangerous viewpoint.

That most certainly is a most odd, ill informed and possibly dangerous viewpoint...

'If that's so, was the annihilation of Israel part of Hamas' charter then or did it follow later?'

Good question. Looking on Wikipedia, it says that Hamas was founded in 1987 and its charter was affirmed in 1988

A very useful video, HoneyBadger, which should be more widely distributed, though I doubt it will be popular among those who most need to see it.

It was especially informative about the trigger for Israel cynically opening fake "negotiations" with Arafat, at 25:30 - 27:30

Sherazade any word yet on the source of all those rockets?

Thank God for people like you springheeled, you've done more than most!

Our local fb boycott group has received confirmation that from September it will no longer be sourcing dates from israel or occupied territories. They confirmed they will also be reconsidering any products from there.

It's a start. Keep writing, phoning and boycotting. Every little helps. Tesco should know.

Sorry should say confirmation from Tesco

It's pathetic though poppet and I need someone to organise me, a campaign to be part of. I liked honeybadgers ideas.

I can't do links but everyone should look on the internet for the medialens article about news bias regarding Israel. It's fascinating, especially re the fates of critical American reporters- makes Jon Snow 'getting away with' his reports seem a miracle. On this, I am heartily sick of the bbc graphic depicting two couples, with the Israeli couple foregrounded on thd left and the Palestinians on the right- slightly smaller and in positioning backgrounded- this suggests an equivalence and makes the angst of the Israeli couple seem as equal to that of the Palestinian couple- well we all know this is an unequal 'conflict' in which one side is suffering a great deal more. Then the words 'Gaza conflict' which suggests it's a conflict as opposed to the systematic pulveristation of gaza and its people, as well as only naming Gaza as opposed to both sides. It seems hair splitting but graphics and language like that are loaded, not balanced.

I also hate the way we see the different funerals with the more western type funerals of Israeli soldiers given lingering shots and clips of speeches made etc as opposed to the shots of shrouded bodies being hurried through the streets. Yes, the funeral processes are different but if the bbc gave each Palestinian death the same level of detail as we have seen for some of the Israeli funerals it would be more balanced. In short, the dead soldiers are humanised and the Palestinians dehumanised in this imbalanced coverage of their funerals.

Finally, I wonder where the bbc journalists of the guts and sense of the likes of Jon Snow are- or even the journalists- half the time it sounds like they are reading out IDF press releases- which we can all read on twitter anyway.

Oh and finally again, I thank the bbc for helping me to discover Al Jazeera which seems to be a thoughtful news channel with loads of female reporters and diverse faces and far greater depth to the coverage of everything (unfortunately including far more grim images) Anyone who thinks Syria has gone off the radar for example will see events there covered on Al Jazeera.

I received a video message today of a Palestinian boy working in an Israeli household being beaten with a stick by a little girl aged 3/4 and her family cheering on. I didn't know some palestinian children went out to work in Israeli settlements.

There are Palestinian children working in houses and on Israeli construction sites with little pay and no insurance so if they hurt themselves or die no one pays the bill.

It just seems that Israel has been violating human rights laws for so long without anyone batting an eyelid.

babbas great re: Tesco! Excellent.

I've emailed Sainsbury's and Tesco too. They tried to fob me off but I will keep writing, not really sure what else we can do?