Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Establishment Paedophiled Part 2 : **Warning, potential triggers**

720 replies

standwellclearvehiclereversing · 21/07/2014 12:42

A new thread following on from the previous one in Chat here

OP posts:
SomethingOnce · 16/03/2015 21:49

Metropolitan Police probed over child abuse 'cover-up' claims (BBC)

"Labour MP for Rochdale Simon Danczuk told BBC Radio 4's World at One the investigation was a "significant development".

Mr Danczuk, who had been calling for such an inquiry, said: "We are on the cusp of finding out exactly what went on in the 70s and 1980s and, I'm sorry to say, I think it will be shown that senior politicians were involved in abuse and there was a cover up. I think that's inevitable now.""

Let's hope he's right.

CFSKate · 22/03/2015 10:55

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3006036/PETER-HITCHENS-smugly-boast-Magna-Carta-stands-trampled.html

About the child abuse investigations, he writes

"Many of those being investigated are dead. The only effect of it is to discredit and undermine what is left of our institutions, from Parliament to the police. Do people have any idea how much our civilisation depends on trust, or of what will happen when it is gone?"

Not all being investigated are dead. Not all victims are dead.
Surely covering up child abuse has done more to undermine trust in our institutions, than investigating it could ever do? Is he saying investigating is bad because it will undermine trust in institutions, and our civilization depends on trust? But what kind of civilization is based on it being OK to cover up child abuse?

He says "Geoffrey Dickens was a buffoon with a poor grasp of facts".
He does not mention Barbara Castle.

Can someone tell me if I have interpreted his words wrongly, I have brain fog today.

claig · 22/03/2015 11:07

Hitchens is talking rubbish. Our civilisation depends on justice, freedom, openness and no cover-ups even though our ruling elite often do not live up to those ideals.

It is irrelevant if the people investigated are dead or not because it is important for our society to understand how it was allowed to happen, what networks facilitated it, who covered it up and how our system works and why it was covered up and to protect whom. That is the only way to ensure that our system is a just one with moral people representing us and that such things can never be allowed to happen again.

blacksunday · 22/03/2015 11:26

UKIP... moral people...

claig · 22/03/2015 13:27

"Ex-cop claims a ROYAL was in paedophile ring but inquiry was closed"

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ex-cop-claims-royal-paedophile-ring-5379159

SomethingOnce · 22/03/2015 19:34

Funny, isn't it, because a courageous and thorough investigation would actually make me feel more trusting of our institutions.

As things stand, I feel mistrustful of the institutions of the past but am keeping an open mind as to how I feel about those of today; the handling of this matter will be significant in informing my position.

SomethingOnce · 22/03/2015 20:04

I've just read the Hitchens piece twice more, and am struggling to understand how the proper investigation of historical offences is trampling over anything, never mind Magna Carta.

Poor Peter. He seems rather a nostalgic man with a great fondness for the Establishment, so all this must be very unsettling for him.

applecatchers36 · 07/04/2015 20:17

On channel 4 news tonight Richard, a survivor of sexual abuse firstly at Kincora then trafficked to London and abused at Elm guest house and Dolphin Square. He is saying that the abuse is connected and part of an establishment paedophile network ( sophisticated UK wide ring). He says he fears for his life as two of his friends have committed suicide and twice he has been warned to keep quiet by detectives.

Gralick · 13/04/2015 01:25

Just putting this back on my active list.

Mumfun · 16/04/2015 14:00

No prosecution of Greville Janner. What a surprise. He was able to attend the House of Lords until 2014. Hope some of the victims ask for their right to review.

Galrick · 16/04/2015 14:02

Oh, FFS Angry That lid keeps getting slammed back on the box!

Agreed, Mumfun, I hope a review is pursued.

Mumfun · 16/04/2015 18:24

What planet do the family live on?

In a statement Lord Janner's family described him as a "man of great integrity and high repute with a long and unblemished record of public service".
"As the Crown Prosecution Service indicated today, this decision does not mean or imply that any of the allegations that have been made are established or that Lord Janner is guilty of any offence," the family said.

Maybe not to them but everyone else can read the evidence given in court in the Frank Beck trial and since. And the fact that a Chief Constable has come out and stated that he was told not to search his house or pursue the case (earlier in his career) could not be more telling

TinklyLittleLaugh · 16/04/2015 19:26

I find this so disturbing, Lord Janner and Viscount Tonypandy were absolute heroes of mine.

Geoffrey Dickens, who I always considered a boorish Tory oaf, is emerging as an absolute hero.

It's like all the foundations of my youthful beliefs have been turned upside down.

Galrick · 16/04/2015 19:40

Tinkly, there's no doubt that Janner has done a huge amount of good work. He's a founder and mainstay of the Holocaust survivors' movement and many other important things. Unfortunately, a shining persona and determined good works don't rule out a revolting private life. It may even be that outstanding good works are set up as a front - this was certainly the case with Savile, though Janner's story might be more complicated. It doesn't mean the good works are useless: it means the man doing them is not a good person.

samG76 · 17/04/2015 10:46

Tinkly - that's remarkable - I was a big fan of George Thomas, and his book was great. GJ as well. As for Geoffrey Dickens, he did have a lot of funny ideas, ie about satanic rituals and the like, and these led to a lot of injustices in the 80s/90s. If these turn out to have been right as well (ie there were satanic groups) then I'll concede he may have had a point.

Galrick · 17/04/2015 11:40

From what I know - second and third hand - there were or are groups who abuse children in what they call satanic rituals and the like. I would imagine the cruelty is their main objective. Whether they believe in a spiritual element to it or it's part of a game to control the children, I don't know. Perhaps a bit of both.

It's interesting that the claims lumped together with 'satanic' rituals as confabulations of false memory syndrome include such things as being imprisoned in secret rooms, forced to have sex with animals, to undergo 'surgery' and being filmed. Thanks to the Belgian investigations we know these abuses really were perpetrated on children. We also now accept that out-of-body experiences are a fairly usual psychological phenomenon when people undergo severe trauma, particularly children.

I can't see much reason to doubt that people who would do this sort of thing are capable of convincing children they are being victimised by witches. Children can be convinced of this without sexual abuse! The debunking campaign was heavily focused on whether satanic groups and the like were actually aimed at raising the devil.

Jean La Fontaine investigated 84 cases of alleged ritual abuse, and substantiates only three, none of which meets her criteria for "satanic" abuse because none was directed to the worship of the devil. She observes that in these cases "the aim is sexual and the ritual is incidental to it. Self-proclaimed mystical/magical powers were used to entrap children and impress them with a reason for the sexual abuse, keeping the victims compliant and ensuring their silence."

Jean La Fontaine is an anthropologist, not a clinical psychologist or a criminal investigator. She did not say the abuses hadn't taken place, only that victims had been manipulated. Neither did she address whether any of the perpetrators believed in their rituals - she couldn't, as she had no access to them. Yet the whole story was dismissed on the strength of her report.

Galrick · 17/04/2015 12:00

From Tasmania:

"All three adults were frequent users of methamphetamine and the sexual abuse occurred mainly when they were using drugs.
"On several occasions the man administered methamphetamine to some of the children orally to keep them awake during the sexual activity.
"... the abuse was intertwined with the man's drug use and he had little memory of it."

If drugs interfered with the memory of an adult, habitual user, they'd interfere with children's memories of what happened wouldn't they?

www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-04/tasmanian-man-drugged-children-before-sexual-abuse-court-told/6280630
au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/26637106/tasmanian-man-sentenced-for-abhorrent-and-appalling-child-sex-abuse/

TinklyLittleLaugh · 17/04/2015 15:15

Geoffrey Dickens was in care wasn't he? Sadly he probably had some, if not first hand, then at least second or third hand experience of child abuse.

And I do believe that dodgy, public school culture has gone a long way to making child abuse seem unremarkable to the establishment.

Mumfun · 17/04/2015 16:26

Yes totally agree with dodgy public school culture. It also engenders and attitude of the upper classes being superior and the servants being absolutely expendable.

dannythechampionoftheworld · 17/04/2015 20:02

A friend was abused at a public school quite a few years ago - he said 2 out of 3 of his housemasters were paedophiles and used to prey on the junior school aged children as they were more vulnerable and less likely to tell. Apparently they went for the boarders who didn't go home at weekends as they were a safer bet :(

My friend believes this kind of institutionalised abuse effects most greatly the 'top' and 'bottom' (his words) ends of society and in that sense it's a great leveller. Also self-perpetuating..

dannythechampionoftheworld · 17/04/2015 20:02

affects

knickernicker · 21/04/2015 23:31

I am so sad that Lord Janner's family are unwilling to consider the possibility that the allegations might have some truth. I can say from my own experience that people of 'high repute' can have unsavoury desires and do abuse children.

Swipe left for the next trending thread