A Malaysian plane has been shot down in the Ukraine.

[WeAreEternal]

The flight mh17 from Amsterdam to kuala lumpor with 295 people on board, it was a boing 777.
It was shot down with a buk ground to air missile.
They say there are no survivors.

It's awful.

'Your presumptions are insulting.'

No.

We have all wondered what we would do in that situation when we looked at footage of toys and books and teddies and suitcases .... We can only imagine - and yesterday in particular I was outraged at the situation at that crash site. That's how I felt. I felt for the bereaved in their torment and plight to at least recover their loved ones and that they no longer lie in fields.

claig Sun 20-Jul-14 17:17:29
Rebels have recovered the black box

Yes, Reuters reported on Friday that both flight recorders had been found Friday although RT denied it.

No, 'we' have not all done this. You and other ghoul tourists have. Because you have nothing better to do than 'imagine' and looky loo.

I don't need to imagine, my child is 2 years dead now.

Although she died of natural causes, the shock of it never truly goes away, so far be it from me to make any assumptions about how the loved ones of those who were murdered feel right now or how they should behave.

Oh, I just saw it live breaking news on MSN and the Daily Mail now has a headline news article about it together with a Ukrainian government video of rebels revealing "Moscow's desperation to get them first"

Can we stop this thread degenerating into a load of tit-for-tat nonsense please.

Given you need your wits about you to survive in a war zone, as an experienced and well connected person, if you started talking about going there yourself as a bereaved parent in those circumstances, I would question your mental health and would say that you were a danger to yourself and to other people...

...put it this way, that would be grounds enough to stop you travelling.

could such a thing be possible?

Lord save us from armchair warriors like Animation!!!!! You truly have no idea what you would do if you were unlucky enough to have lost your child is such a hideous way.

Think of that couple who have lost all three of their children - you know, I think that if those people can get up and walk and talk it is a bloody miracle. Why do you think they should be rampaging about the flipping Ukraine? You cannot begin to imagine the depth of their pain and your ridiculous assertions about what you would do are insulting to all of the bereaved and mark you out as an unsympathetic fool (putting it politely).

Expat - I know you lost your child. I'm sorry for your loss.

We are bound to try and imagine what we would do in this particular situation if we were thwarted in our attempts to have our loved ones treat with dignity and brought home. I haven't expressed any assumptions on how the bereaved should act.

My anger is at the rebels for thinking they can call the shots - I was starting to believe that the emergency services would continue to be obstructed.

"Corn - I think I would try my damnedest .... if I had no faith in the officials and international powers. What's to lose?"

Bluntly, your life.

Leaving your family further bereaved.

I am not arguing with you folks - I've made my points and this thread need to get back on track.

What is with the 'we', Animation*, unless you are referring to other ghouls tourists and drama llamas with nothing better to do than waste precious time imagining fates that a) have not befallen them but someone else b) may never befall them?

Plenty of people do not spend time speculating in this fashion and consider it pathetic.

Expat - I'm not getting into an argument with you.

Enough please!! FFS - petty squabbling not appropriate on this thread!!

Goody, now the thread police are here.

oh, thanks for that comment. I am hardly thread police, just quite upset actually that this thread had degenerated into squables. Two days ago I believed relatives of mine were on that flight which was terrifying, and I just felt this thread had a useful purpose and I felt it was a shame for it to disintegrate. But never mind.

Woah. Some all round.

Everyone's rather on edge, quite understandably.

Parsing and Maryz, thanks, and yes, all round. I probably shouldn't have waded in as well, so sorry as well . Parsing you're quite right; a subject like this gets everyone on edge, as you say. Maryz you're quite right - it's a strange combination.

Animation, recovering bodies in a war zone is a very difficult process. I speak from experience. In 1995 and 1996 I was in Bosnia, first with the UN, then NATO.

In 1995 as part of a regular patrol a joint Danish & Brit Army unit went into an abandoned and bombed out building after local intelligence suggested there were Arms hidden there. The lads first in quite quickly realised there were bodies amongst the rubble and were then told the building had been a school. It took 3 further months to get the 'permission' required to uncover and repatriate the bodies. Warring factions on 2 sides took to threatening and booby-trapping the building. 3 months where families of missing children came and stood at the bottom of the road at first light and went home again at dusk. In the end it took an 'illegal' cordon of hairy arsed foul mouthed squaddies being put in place at great danger to those involved to force the hand of the faction leaders.

In 1996, one month into a 6 month tour, a hand appeared in the soil directly in front of the guard box protecting one of the British Camps. As the thaw came this body was slowly uncovered. The Brits were not allowed to dig up this body. It had to be left there, re-covered every morning to give some decency until the War Crimes investigators gave the red light for the body to be recovered. This didn't happen until we were close to leaving, so nearly 5 months. It was a woman and child. Another casualty of war.

I understand your anger. I understand the urge, the desire, the 'need' to feel something, but you really don't understand how hard it is to be in a war zone and how hands are tied, politics control everything and death is a real possibility.

The relatives of those poor bastards couldn't get near, and if by some miracle they did, they'd be killed or the bodies destroyed in spite before they got anywhere.

We have Rules of Engagement and The Law of Armed Conflict to try and protect us, but frankly, if they are willing to shoot down a civilian passenger plane, do you think they are likely to follow any code of conflict?

The best the families can do is wait, and if at all possible, try to grieve without the physical remains. They may never get them.

Apologies for the length of my post, and for walking off the track.

Thank you for your post, LtEve.