A Malaysian plane has been shot down in the Ukraine.

[WeAreEternal]

The flight mh17 from Amsterdam to kuala lumpor with 295 people on board, it was a boing 777.
It was shot down with a buk ground to air missile.
They say there are no survivors.

It's awful.

I am honestly more concerned about the consequences of this. World wars were started over less

Yes I'm worried that this is the 2014 Franz Ferdinand moment.

ElizabethLemon I've been trying so hard not to say that.

And this time around, its more likely to be nuclear.

Re: Franz Ferdinand. It didn't kick off because of his assassination, it kicked off due to diplomatic brinkmanship and entanglement.

We have some way to go before getting to that point. Its not the event itself that is the problem, its how the rest of the world handles it, and how far it gets pushed.

I would be curious to know if there were any Chinese citizens on board as that could further complicate manners.

Sorry Parsing :(.

I have been burying my head in the sand over this for ages and because of my dp's job I have heard a lot about it. I have dismissed his concerns but now I'm worried that he's going to be right. He is meant to be flying to Ukraine later in the summer, I really hope he doesn't go.

True Red but thats even more worrying is how the rest of the world does deal with it.

Because there are Americans involved then America will most likely start getting bossy with Britain sitting behind, shaking a fist like a school boy gang.

This is an article by the Economist's Edward Lucas written at about the time that Putin took back the Crimea.

"EDWARD LUCAS: I hope I'm wrong but historians may look back and say this was the start of World War III
'Vladimir Putin is striking at the heart of the West'
'We can chose to surrender any responsibility we have to protect Ukraine and the Baltic states'
'Or we can mount a last-ditch attempt to deter Russia from furthering its imperial ambitions'
'If we choose to resist Putin, we will risk a terrifying miltary escalation'
'I do not think it an exaggeration to say this could bring us to the brink of nuclear war'

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2605578/Edward-Lucas-I-hope-Im-wrong-historians-look-say-start-World-War-III.html

Lucas seems like a bit of a hawk to me. Newsnight tonight had some hawkish commentators on, but not a single Russian spokesperson, ambassador, expert or even a separatist, but then they very rarely put the Russian viewpoint across.

The real question is, does Putin want this escalation, does he want to be ostracised and have sanctions against him and not to be able to sell oil to Europe etc and does he want what Lucas thinks may end up as WWIII? Or is Putin being backed into a corner and are some hawks thinking about WWIII?

"but thats even more worrying is how the rest of the world does deal with it."

Exactly and the fact that Putin is apparently fearless.

The Times has, according to a newspaper review, published (on inside pages) pictures of the passports of two children (the page with photo and name). Appalling.

These are testing times for our brand new Foreign Secretary.

I just saw that on sky news. Disgusting :(

Its not the event itself that is the problem, its how the rest of the world handles it, and how far it gets pushed.
^^ This.

Some international media are making the point that the Ukrainain planes and helicopters that the rebels have shot down previously were at much lower altitude. The rebels haven't used Buk launchers before. In fact they haven't even admitted to having Buk launchers whilst the Ukraine military definitely has Buk launchers. Also, the media report said that the rebels shot down a much smaller and lower level flying Ukrainian plane about 20 minutes before the Malaysian flight came down. The reporter asked Ukraine to confirm or deny if that was true, and they wouldn't.

According to the BBC, the US is already pledging support to the Ukrainain President which seems rather presumptuous since at this point in time all we know is an aircraft came down in their airspace. The brinkmanship has definitely started.

It isn't a school boy gang picking on a weaker kid though. The comparison is wrong from that put of view.

A better analogy would be with regard to Putin's personality being more like a Wilhelm who is unwilling to back down at all costs because of a domestic need to show an iron fist to retain his own position. His future is certainly not as secure as it outwardly appears. I don't believe he is as unstable and unpredictable as Wilhelm was though (which is a good thing).

I am sure that the US and UK are very aware of this, and will take it into consideration. They have to offer 'a way out' to Putin, rather than just purely pushing it to its limits.

Oh i dont believe the analogy, as in picking on the weaker kid.

I believe it as in Britain just does what America wants.

Obama doesn't appear to be as gun toting as Bush was so hopefully this will find a diplomatic resolution, but the rise of social media as well as the press' usual desire for the dramatic will make it more difficult

No, don't apologise. Not just me thinking it, then.

I'm much less well informed than you about specifics, but have been broadly watching things develop in the last few years. Not just in Russia but the global power shifts.

And we've got all the right conditions in the UK to elect fucking nutters in the near future (economic hardship and political disillusionment offering opportunity to any small party promising the earth and trading on jingoism and scapegoating). So even if things don't escalate immediately, we're on very dangerous ground. Duplicated over much of Europe.

I've actually been waiting for the archduke moment. I hope to god I'm being ridiculous and melodramatic.

Parsing you aren't the only one.

I have honestly been thinking over the last year or so that there is so much unrest within europe that eventually something is going to give.

Its not the event itself that is the problem, its how the rest of the world handles it, and how far it gets pushed.

Agree, this. ^^

My family and I were on that same flight a few months ago. I'm having palpitations every time I think about it.

Those poor people.

It's concerning that the conflict in Gaza is escalating at the same time meaning the world has to respond to two major diplomatic incidents. I hope one does not overshadow the other. Both could have extensive repercussions.

Truly shocking and horrific :(

'A better analogy would be with regard to Putin's personality being more like a Wilhelm who is unwilling to back down at all costs because of a domestic need to show an iron fist to retain his own position.'

The idea was to try and get Putin to send Russian troops in to East Ukraine to prevent Russian speakers being bombed and killed, after which escalation could be justified. But Putin is too smart and has not yet taken the bait.

The idea of Isis is to try and get Iran to take the bait and intervene in Iraq so that escalation can then be justified. The idea if Isis is to spread across Syria and other parts of the Middle East so that after having tempted Iran with the bait, that there could then be justification to sort out Iran and after that Isis too and the entire Middle East.

Oh whatever Claig.

Jersey, agree about Obama, and also about pressure from the tub-thumpers.

WhatTheFork

Wake up to what is happening under our very eyes. There is nothing we can do about it. We make no decisions and can't change any plans. But at least don't be taken in by the propaganda as they lead us into an escalation that Lucas of the Economist thinks may end up as a nuclear WWIII.